No knee drop for Noob

[lowangle al]

Your boots look like they are beefy enough, now you should think about ditching those double camber karhus and try those Phoenix or Rossi RTS skis at the resort.

A tip for carving your P turns better is to flex your ankles more. Lower your butt and drive your knees forward. You need to create that forward lean that comes built in on alpine boots.

[fisheater]

Your boots look like they are beefy enough, now you should think about ditching those double camber karhus and try those Phoenix or Rossi RTS skis at the resort.

A tip for carving your P turns better is to flex your ankles more. Lower your butt and drive your knees forward. You need to create that forward lean that comes built in on alpine boots.

^^^^^^^^^^^
Exactly this! You need to ski shins to the boots, whether you’re skiing alpine boots or ankle high leathers! Boots to the shins bends the ankles, puts your knees out in front of your ankles, and your hips above or slightly in front of your ankles.
I will add hands out on the theoretical bicycle handlebars. Show me a skier with his hands on his hips, and I’ll show you a skier with his hips weighting the tails.

I hope I was not too blunt, but good skiing starts with correct posture. Granted correct posture doesn’t guarantee good skiing.

[mca80]

Your boots look like they are beefy enough, now you should think about ditching those double camber karhus and try those Phoenix or Rossi RTS skis at the resort.

A tip for carving your P turns better is to flex your ankles more. Lower your butt and drive your knees forward. You need to create that forward lean that comes built in on alpine boots.

^^^^^^^^^^^
Exactly this! You need to ski shins to the boots, whether you’re skiing alpine boots or ankle high leathers! Boots to the shins bends the ankles, puts your knees out in front of your ankles, and your hips above or slightly in front of your ankles.
I will add hands out on the theoretical bicycle handlebars. Show me a skier with his hands on his hips, and I’ll show you a skier with his hips weighting the tails.

I hope I was not too blunt, but good skiing starts with correct posture. Granted correct posture doesn’t guarantee good skiing.

You can even work on this inside, hands on a workbench or table in front of you just enough grip or pressure to keep you from falling forward and work on that ankle flex. Or while gliding along on flats or very gentle downhill. Practicing basic drills is the only way to get truly good, no matter what athletic conquest it is.

[Montana St Alum]

....just can't get the split to drop a knee, though I'm decent at paralleling with them. I can while walking/striding, but not once moving where it feels like neither control or balance in my lace up Merril leather three pins.

Edited, just to reiterate the problem.
It sounds like you need someone to go skiing with you to help out.

[TallGrass]

You need to ski shins to the boots, whether you’re skiing alpine boots or ankle high leathers!

Shins to the boots? On boots that stop just above the ankle? Umm... Radiator cap for a 1969 VW bug?

Shins to boots with alpine boots is not an issue, trust me.

My ankles flex fine, as in I can make the Karhu edges bite or side slip, conditions allowing (nothing bites well on ice or bulletproof crust).

I can also keep the outside boot flat while pressuring the ball of foot on the inside ski, it just isn't very noticeable. I think it's mainly that on hardpack resort runs the skis tips waver like a pair of well-witching rods, and ankles/knees/hips (heim/hinge/ballsocket) working to keep that stable AND drop low is a tall order.

Again, just something to make more runs with when I can.

Thanks again.

[lowangle al]

The reason your tips feel like they are all over the place is not because of the tips. It's because you're not getting enough weight on the skis to flatten the double camber out and get good edge contact underfoot. Flexing your ankles more will not fix this problem but will make you more stable.

Even though your boots are only ankle high, pressuring the tongue will still be effective and help with control and stability.

[TallGrass]

The reason your tips feel like they are all over the place is not because of the tips. It's because you're not getting enough weight on the skis to flatten the double camber out and get good edge contact underfoot. Flexing your ankles more will not fix this problem but will make you more stable.

Even though your boots are only ankle high, pressuring the tongue will still be effective and help with control and stability.

Edge doesn't add up, nor weight, nor tongue.

I've skied the same slopes, even the same day, in alpine skis and boots (swapped in parking lot at lunch). Alpine skis skitter just the same but have a more rigid boot, more side cut, locked heel, flat camber, and more leg contact for more control.

On a green, I'll sometimes spin around to ski backwards in alpines without stopping, to talk to my skiing partner behind, then the same to spin back around and keep going. It's that kind of hardpack.

And I CAN flex to make the Karhu edges* bite. Moreover, in softer snow the tips and tails can curve up enough to be like rockers on a rocking chair preventing shuffling forward so I have to step or side step to get going again.

* As posted earlier many times, these Karhu Kodiak Edge 205 skis only have partial edges on the middle third of the ski, kind of an odd ball.

Hence, I don't see weight as the issue with the Karhus. I've yet to try the Fischer America 109st skis (full edge, minimal camber under foot) at a resort.

Edit:

There is a point when snow gets hard enough that I switch to parallel turns. Telemark is a soft snow turn. One problem for a beginner is to know when NOT to try tele turns.
– lowangle al

https://telemarktalk.com/viewtopic.php? ... 557#p57485

[lowangle al]

I don't think the 3/4 edge on those Karhus will hurt you, they might even help. I do believe that they are a dbl camber ski and dbl camber skis take extreme weighting to get the edge down. You may be getting the edge to "bite", but are you carving forward, with the tails following the tips or are you skidding.

You don't need to flex your ankles to get an edge down, it just gives you more control.

[Lo-Fi]

...If you don't have any tips other than to get/buy something else, I'll just keep plodding along...

Ok, I'm not going to tell you to get or buy something else. Those seem like fine skis and boots.

What I will say though, is that what you are trying to do with them is indeed difficult.

I've had these Karhu Kodiak Edge 205 ... but just can't get the split to drop a knee (or drive the other knee... tomato tomahtoe), thogh I'm decent at paralleling with them. I can while walking/striding, but not once moving where it feels like neither control no balance in my lace up Merril leather three pins...

I hope I understand this correctly, but it sounds like you feel too tentative or insecure on the gear to even try dropping into a tele position (?)

Even with many years of experience, I would find that particular equipment unstable and challenging on a lift-served type slope. Relatively speaking, for tele downhill:

• Skis are too skinny, too long, too lightweight, not fully edged, and about the worst flex-pattern/camber for arcing a turn.

• Boots are too low and floppy, with sub-optimal binding support.

Is it impossible? No. Really challenging? Oh yeah.

I mean, back when I first starting learning tele in 1989(!) is was on Karhu Supremes and Asolo Snowpine boots which were really hard to learn on, even at the tiny local downhill area, with a great instructor - and even that gear, which would look similar to your kit, was an order of magnitude easier for learning telemark skiing on.

In terms of tips for continued use of your set-up:

• The gear itself is not preventing you from dropping into a tele stance. It is likely your body, with good reason, just afraid of tipping over and falling. Sometimes, it is worth the risk/inevitability of falling in order for your body to proprioceptively learn the limits of balance and movement.

So to help feeling comfortable dropping, I'd suggest:

• Start on a patch of hill with almost imperceptible slope and with a flat run-out so there is no subconscious anxiety of gaining too much speed. One of the biggest pitfalls when trying to learn, especially without an instructor's guidance, is not selecting the correct terrain, and that usually means too much slope. No Blues (& even many Greens). Also, hopefully no other skiers whizzing by, cutting you off.

• Start with the straight-line running drill of dropping and rising in and out of the tele position. Flat skis.

• Same drill traversing across a gentle slope, both directions. This adds a bit of ski edging.

Then move on to the same drills but adding some turning effort, and doing garlands across the slope... and all the other excellent advice everyone has already given!

[TallGrass]

Ok, I'm not going to tell you to get or buy something else. Those seem like fine skis and boots. What I will say though, is that what you are trying to do with them is indeed difficult.

"Friends" say I'm difficult, so I guess it's only fair, eh?

I hope I understand this correctly, but it sounds like you feel too tentative or insecure on the gear to even try dropping into a tele position (?) Even with many years of experience, I would find that particular equipment unstable and challenging on a lift-served type slope. Relatively speaking, for tele downhill:

• Skis are too skinny, too long, too lightweight, not fully edged, and about the worst flex-pattern/camber for arcing a turn.

• Boots are too low and floppy, with sub-optimal binding support.

Is it impossible? No. Really challenging? Oh yeah.

Well, I've never telemarked, so let's not blame the gear. I've also noticed just alpine skiing in them, my knees were getting more tired than with an alpine set up due to moderating speed with snowplow. The more comfortable I got, the more parallel, the less fatigue. I have tried in "wider, shorter, heavier, fully-edged, and basically flat" K2 WorkStinx and had a WORSE time in those as it was a struggle to get the edges to bite (wider ski = more lateral leverage to overcome). Part of it may just be familiarity as this was one of two pair (of the twelve) that had bindings, thus the first I played with and the pair I have the most "miles" on.

I mean, back when I first starting learning tele in 1989(!) is was on Karhu Supremes and Asolo Snowpine boots which were really hard to learn on, even at the tiny local downhill area, with a great instructor - and even that gear, which would look similar to your kit, was an order of magnitude easier for learning telemark skiing on.

Why, thank you, for the palm anti-podal compliment with regard to my tenacity!

The gear itself is not preventing you from dropping into a tele stance. It is likely your body, with good reason, just afraid of tipping over and falling. Sometimes, it is worth the risk/inevitability of falling in order for your body to proprioceptively learn the limits of balance and movement.

Totally aware that I'm fighting muscle memory et al, however it is also good practice for alpine in that you have to keep on the balls of your feet more, a bit like a hockey player taking figure skating lessons. I enjoy the challenge, and think if I can find some soft and gentle (slope) snow that this skis can "follow their own groove" in I'll do better. When I go down ski trails of varying "freshness" I stagger for stability where needed with the outside-turn ski in the lead. The trails are just too narrow to work on turns though.

One thought is that since I have uphill access at a few resorts, maybe one morning (if only morning started later...) I can skin/shoe up before the lifts get going and get some soft snow turns down the greens before they get skied out and packed down.

Don't know if you've followed my other posts, but I went up Rollins Pass Road from the Winter Park side to Rifle Sight Notch (first trestle) explicitly to have a nice, long, gentle ski back to work on turns. However, the 3% max grade of the old rail bed meant I had to pole nearly the whole way back down. Shame as it was lightly snowing and just a little more slope would have been great. There were only three short stretches where I got glide, and then I was doing a staggered-snowplow or tele-pizza with the outside turn ski in the lead.

I think, mindset wise, I just have to commit to falling, and if a turn happens here or there, count it as a bonus.