Kickin' It Old School

[randoskier]

Well, would you believe 50# pack?
https://www.menshealth.com/fitness/a309 ... h-youtube/

I got one of those repair kits as a thankyou gift when I was Pres of a XC club 25 years ago. Still have the spool of bailing wire in my tool box.

Flat NYC pavement at sea level versus going up/down mountains from a 10,000' elevation start (lower air pressure... 2/3rds the available O2?) on rolling trails is a significant difference, as is 50 vs 80#. Like speedwalking (best can sustain to 9mph or so... on a flat track with no pack), you have to keep one foot in contact at all times or else the "hop" becomes a jog or run (foot contact alternates 1-2-1-2-... walking vs 1-0-1-0- running), and that hop means all the pack weight cycling from loading your shoulders and waistbelt and unloading it with an impulse greater than the packweight (ala, dropping a 80# pack on a scale will momentarily swing the needle well past 80#).

I've no doubt there were those in the 10th that could, but even a cherry picked group of 1940s fit recruits is going to thin considerably and take time to acclimate (BPG shift in blood for one...) much less to reach that level of fitness. Doing it with skis could make it more efficient/faster on the uphill, and of course down. There are SAR members hauling 80# or so packs, but they come in (slower) well after a "hasty team" going in light with the bare minimum and radios. I'm no Ueli Steck, yet have done 12+hr for days in a row with a multi-day pack above 10-13k to be aware of the challenges... and the 'sore-dom' that goes with it.

Our house in Allenspark, Colorado was at over 9,000ft. RMNP was literally our backyard, people routinely drove up every weekend from Boulder/Denver/Ft Collins (+/- 5,000 feet) to Estes Park and climbed Long's Peak (14,200 ft.) the same day or over two days with a bivouac at the Boulder Field. You don't have to do hardcore assimilation until you are talking well over 14,000 ft. You sound like a flat-lander.

[randoskier]

One of the most interesting units is Danish Special Forces- the remote Sirius Patrol two man dog sled team that does 2 years, and patrols a few thousand km of Greenland's coast. During the 2 years no leave is permitted.

We overnighted on a Danish military base in southern Greenland a few years ago. It was one of the most hospitable, welcoming places you can imagine. There's a tradition of gourmet cooking in the Danish military abroad. We ate snow crab and roast musk ox and gourmet versions of Danish comfort food. They're so amazingly isolated and make the best of it in a hilariously social and Scandinavian way.

Sounds like the French, wine in the mess hall! Roast musk-ox? Are you a cannibal? I hope they did not call you a fjell abe? Were you in the Norwegian Army at the time?

How is the weather in northern Troms right now? I am just back from Trøndelag and it was a pretty warm winter there this year. Off to Finnmark in April- they are finally cold now after a warm spell- hope it holds.

[TallGrass]

Our house in Allenspark, Colorado was at over 9,000ft. RMNP was literally our backyard, people routinely drove up every weekend from Boulder/Denver/Ft Collins (+/- 5,000 feet) to Estes Park and climbed Long's Peak (14,200 ft.) the same day or over two days with a bivouac at the Boulder Field. You don't have to do hardcore assimilation until you are talking well over 14,000 ft. You sound like a flat-lander.

@randoskier "You sound like a flat-lander." meaning... ?

Longs Peak is a fine hike, and people of a wide variety of fitness do it every year, so merely summiting does little to discern, just as hundreds, thousands do Pikes, Quandary and others each year from all over the U.S. and beyond. Personally, I've never overnighted in RMNP, only day-tripped; far easier than rucking in trad gear over 20mi from Purgatory to Ruby Lake, or doing 10k vert and 20mi in a six-peak link-up day.

I can think of five main factors when comparing: Duration (hrs), intensity (mph), load (pack #), terrain (vert gain/loss), avail O2*** (altitude).

Also worth noting that it is more "work" (in the classical physics sense) to gain 1,000' in elevation than to hike for a mile (5,280'), which can obfuscate mph stat comparisons, and gaining 1,000'/hr is a solid pace.

@wooley12 if you like to crunch data... As the WWII 10th Mountain Division was at Camp Hale just north of Tennessee Pass north of Leadville, CO, I went with 2,500' gain as Camp Hale is about 9,200' with adjoining roads and trails to peaks over 11,700 like Jackal Hut as for training you'd want something with max vert that officers can jeep to checkpoints and turnarounds in advance to record who made it and when. There lots of routes in that area, some possibly blazed by Camp Hale, some likely after, and no doubt many before by miners and prospectors easily adopted for training.

By comparison, Longs' standard route is about 4.9k feet over 6.62mi to the summit.**

Comparing some routes:
South Camp Hale to Jackal Hut**: 3.77 mi, 2,436ft gain, 3.2hr hike**, 1.17mph avg
Pearl Creek to Jackal Hut**: 6.23mi, 2,487ft gain, 4hr hike**, 1.56mph avg
Longs Peak standard route**: 6.62mi 4,933ft gain, 6.3hr hike**, 1.05mph avg

Longs doesn't compare to a "Camp Hale 'march' " prima facie, too many outliers, especially pack weight:
3hr, 4mph, 80#, 2.5k*, 70-64% (Camp Hale "march", 9.2k elev, 11.7k terrain nearby)
?hr, ?mph, ??#, 5k, 69-58% (Longs route)

10hr, 1.3mph, 20#, 5k, 69-58% (solid Longs pace with light pack including water; many people take significantly longer)
7hr, 2mph, 10#, 5k, 69-58% (very brisk Longs pace with very light pack)
3.3hr, 4mph, ??#, 5k, 69-58% (Longs at Hale pace)

* Various routes with one or more "summits" could have been used, or even three "laps" of a 4mi circuit. I'm sure there was a progression in training mixing in longer hikes, more vert gain/loss, and heavier packs as it went on.
** one-way and per CalTopo, descents are usually faster e.g. 50-66% of ascent time
*** https://wildsafe.org/resources/ask-the- ... en-levels/

Reference Maps:
Camp Hale https://caltopo.com/m/QRH9
Longs Peak https://caltopo.com/m/V9L4

[randoskier]

Having walked the GR5 (twice, both directions) please don't tell me about hiking. I have walked all over Europe and lived in both the Cascades (Leavenworth) and the Rockies (Allenspark) in the US, the southern French Alps (Oisans) and the northern French Alps Savoie. I live in the foothills of the Dolomites. I did most of my walking after I stopped climbing. I find most writing about hiking particularly from blowhards like Harvey Manning (US) and Paddy Dillon (UK) useless and boring, not quite as boring as listening to "ultralight" hikers yakking on endlessly about "Dyneema" etc.

So have a nice Mid-Western day : )

[TallGrass]

Having walked the GR5 (twice, both directions) please don't tell me about hiking. I have walked all over Europe and lived in both the Cascades (Leavenworth) and the Rockies (Allenspark) in the US, the southern French Alps (Oisans) and the northern French Alps Savoie. I lived in the foothills of the Dolomites. I did most of my walking after I stopped climbing. I find most writing about hiking particularly from blowhards like Harvey Manning (US) and Paddy Dillon (UK) useless and boring, not quite as boring as listening to "ultralight" hikers yakking on endlessly about "Dyneema" etc.

So have a nice Mid-Western day : )

"You sound like a flat-lander." ... "Don't tell me about hiking." What's with the hostility/defensiveness? I don't see how that's conducive to a group, be it people/troops hiking mountains or conversing on a forum. Athleticism is not tied to ZIP/postal codes.

https://telemarktalk.com/viewtopic.php? ... 193#p59193

BTW (regarding below), per his own posting, GS ceased being active back in January.

My hunch, based on what I've seen of the 10th Mtn, is they "went with what they had, not what they wanted," at least for training. In that clip one soldier talks about having to move his feet all night to keep them from freezing. IIRC, cold-weather gear started coming into its own during the Korean War for the U.S., and soldiers just had to "make do" and or "improvise" with what they had available. If I pulled up 1941 kit, I'd expect to see WWI/II-esque boot gaiters supplementing ski "boots".

You hunch is right, you just need to move it forward to at least the 70s (15 years after Korea).

My dad was in the Canadian Army. His unit was assigned to the NATO rapid reaction force, which deployed to N. Norway every winter for training.

The Canadians were instructors for other NATO forces up there. Why? Because they had more cold weather experience than even the Scandinavian countries at the time (it gets cold up there but nothing like the Canadian Arctic because the Gulf Stream actually adds warmth (and BIG snow) to Scandinavia. The Gulf Stream is pushed away from Canada by the Labrador Current, which flows out of the polar region. The Gulf Stream eventually turns into the North Atlantic current, but still retains a lot of heat).



Any doubts? Look at the mean minimum of Iqaluit in February (-44C) versus Tromso (-5C), even though Tromso is 300 miles closer to the North Pole. Both coastal cities. One under the influence of the Labrador Current, the other the Gulf Stream.

My dad would often say that the US had the best logistics, lift, and weapons… but atrocious cold weather gear. The American soldiers would suffer up there because of it. The Danes (whose possessions include Greenland) and Norwegians had no issues with gear or fieldcraft. It was their backyard. Germans, French and Italians… varied.

I’m pretty sure all of that changed in the 80s and 90s when the US really embraced global expeditionary warfare. There are just too many smart folks and enough money in the US military to hammer that nail flat. IDK this for certain, as my dad retired in about 1980 but it’s a responsible assumption based on a career in the military myself.

I spent 34+ years in the navy, so didn’t deploy in that capacity with the US military.

Wow that is a long time in the Navy, reserve or active?

I was in USAF for six years (four active) reaching the exalted rank of Sgt.. I was at Pease AFB in NH. Went TDY once to Goose Bay, Labrador which was a USAF forward deployment base during alert exercises. Pease was a northern tier SAC base with eight FB-111s on nuclear alert, each one had six nuclear warheads loaded on SRAMs, four on the wings and two in the belly (during a full alert exercise many times that amount of up-loaded aircraft). I was in USAF Security Forces and only worked at night (3 nights 15:00 to 23:00 then 3 nights 00:00 to 08:00, plus time to draw and turn in our weapons at the armory, then 3 days off except for alert exercises which were 12 on 12 off, no days off).We had no skis or snow shoes as we were mostly on the flightline in the alert area or out in the woods inside the WSA compound where the nukes were stored). The base is situated between the bay and the ocean and windy so winter nights out on the obviously treeless flightline was pretty chilly. We had snorkel parkas and matching pants, bunny boots for extreme cold nights and canvas mukluks for normal winter weather and all that other crap. We had small fiberglass gate shacks the size of a porta pot but you could only go in them for 15 minutes per hour, strictly enforced. I was happy when my orders for Guam arrived!

I was surprised to hear that Canada provided instructors in any NATO exercise in Norway as Norway tends to run that exercise and conduct the winter skills training

The Canadian arctic is indeed colder than the Norwegian arctic (excepting Svalbard, Norway, 77.87°N, which I would assume is colder than any inhabited place in Canada). However almost every Norwegian skis from a very young age hence their saying- "We were born with skis on our feet" (I always counter- Us Yanks were born with guns in our hands).

Norway is not Florida. Tromso is warm because it is on the water- the interior of Troms is cold, the Lyngen Alps in Troms is one of toughest ranges in the world. The pics attached is my wife cooking our breakfast in the balmy Narvik Mountains about 300km south of Tromso, and cabin in the same range that took awhile to open- and that is about 150 km north of the arctic circle. Norway is also very windy so one must not exclude the Wind Chill factor : )

Norwegians do not need ski lessons or winter warfare lessons. Norway only has 5 million people vs Canada's 30 million but if one looks at result boards of Nordic skiing international competitions there are not many Canucks sharing the podium with that huge gang of Norwegian medalists. The same is true of Polar Exploration, Norway is miles ahead of any other country in Polar firsts (and a Norwegian Mile is 10km). Almost every Norwegian man that I know (and a large number of their women) have served in the army, and the nation has a high level of fitness.

Scandinavian troops are better equipped to fight in the arctic environment than any other nations- Norway and Finland are the top (Ask the Russians about the latter). The best troops for the Alpine Environment are France (Alpin Chasseurs), Italian (Alpini), German (Berg Jaeger) and the Swiss Army (who really do have those knives- I asked one- he replied "But sadly without a cork-screw"). The Austrian Army is a joke (Austria hides behind NATO), Iceland does not have an Army, Air Force or Navy. One of the most interesting units is Danish Special Forces- the remote Sirius Patrol two man dog sled team that does 2 years, and patrols a few thousand km of Greenland's coast. During the 2 years no leave is permitted.

The British Marines have trained in Norway forever (the British ww2 joint commando operations with Norwegians are legendary) and they have a lot of good skiers in both the Arctic and Alpine environments.

In my opinion the US has the wrong approach to Arctic warfare and is wasting a lot of time and resources by giving rudimentary two week or one month long training to non-specific units only to see those soldiers transfer to some other unit or separate from the service. It seems that having dedicated Arctic/Ski/Mountain units would be a much better use of resources (as the specialized 10th Mountain Div. was set up in ww2) and massively increase mountain capability and lethality. Their equipment seems to be improving, especially on the USMC front- they have real telemark bindings now, hard cabled! But they keep changing their equipment, they should standardize it. Their new pulks are nice, made on the Norwegian island of Senja.

I don't know much about the Canadian Army I know they have 3 companies in the 3rd that are listed as ski troops and they have a special ops ski de randonee course for alpine terrain.

Below early days in Canadian military skiing:

https://digitalarchive.tpl.ca/objects/3 ... n-the-type

USAF teaching Canucks to land C-130s with skis on the landing gear.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/ho ... -1.3530258

[Musk Ox]

One of the most interesting units is Danish Special Forces- the remote Sirius Patrol two man dog sled team that does 2 years, and patrols a few thousand km of Greenland's coast. During the 2 years no leave is permitted.

We overnighted on a Danish military base in southern Greenland a few years ago. It was one of the most hospitable, welcoming places you can imagine. There's a tradition of gourmet cooking in the Danish military abroad. We ate snow crab and roast musk ox and gourmet versions of Danish comfort food. They're so amazingly isolated and make the best of it in a hilariously social and Scandinavian way.

Sounds like the French, wine in the mess hall! Roast musk-ox? Are you a cannibal? I hope they did not call you a fjell abe? Were you in the Norwegian Army at the time?

As one human beings who likes sliding on snow to a fellow human being who likes sliding on snow, musk ox meat is delicious and I am definitely not a circumpolar mammal who stole a laptop from Qaqartoq airport in 2018. What are your favourite human boots? Mine are Lundhags.

I definitely don't qualify as a fjellabe* being British, though! Not military, either. My wife just managed to play the Dane card when we needed somewhere to crash in southern Greenland.

How is the weather in northern Troms right now? I am just back from Trøndelag and it was a pretty warm winter there this year. Off to Finnmark in April- they are finally cold now after a warm spell- hope it holds.

The weather's completely perfect. It's been a heartbreakingly bad winter all in all, unprecedentedly poor cover, rain and high winds, and temperatures as high as 9°C. But right now it's absolutely, unbelievably, exquisitely perfect, and it's going to hold for a week at least. April in Finnmark you should be good until the end of April at least (but these days who knows).


*"Mountain-monkey", a hilarious term invented by the Danes to tease their camping-obsessed neighbours to the north.

[randoskier]

We overnighted on a Danish military base in southern Greenland a few years ago. It was one of the most hospitable, welcoming places you can imagine. There's a tradition of gourmet cooking in the Danish military abroad. We ate snow crab and roast musk ox and gourmet versions of Danish comfort food. They're so amazingly isolated and make the best of it in a hilariously social and Scandinavian way.

Sounds like the French, wine in the mess hall! Roast musk-ox? Are you a cannibal? I hope they did not call you a fjell abe? Were you in the Norwegian Army at the time?

As one human beings who likes sliding on snow to a fellow human being who likes sliding on snow, musk ox meat is delicious and I am definitely not a circumpolar mammal who stole a laptop from Qaqartoq airport in 2018. What are your favourite human boots? Mine are Lundhags.

I definitely don't qualify as a fjellabe* being British, though! Not military, either. My wife just managed to play the Dane card when we needed somewhere to crash in southern Greenland.

How is the weather in northern Troms right now? I am just back from Trøndelag and it was a pretty warm winter there this year. Off to Finnmark in April- they are finally cold now after a warm spell- hope it holds.

The weather's completely perfect. It's been a heartbreakingly bad winter all in all, unprecedentedly poor cover, rain and high winds, and temperatures as high as 9°C. But right now it's absolutely, unbelievably, exquisitely perfect, and it's going to hold for a week at least. April in Finnmark you should be good until the end of April at least (but these days who knows).


*"Mountain-monkey", a hilarious term invented by the Danes to tease their camping-obsessed neighbours to the north.

Re: Boots. I might try Lundhags or Alfa, I have had it with Alpina. I can't where Italian boots they are all thin lasted and the Italian companies are way behind the curve on where the equipment is headed.

I was in Finnmark last April on my April Fools trip, landed there 1 April, but the snow was collapsing during my last two days, actually those two days were in Finland as I had crossed the border (was wishing for those long forest skis), also the lakes were opening and creaking a lot, all of the short connecting rivers between the lakes were open and swift already and the bears were out and about, tracks everywhere. These days you have to be careful about the snow, that is why I plan last minute trips now with one eye on the weather and I have to suck up the correspondingly higher airfares,

One place the snow really lasts a long time is in the Vindalfjall in Swedish Lapland. I have friends from Mo i Rana (NOT Mosjøen!!!!!!!) who ski every year around May Day from the Virvasshytta (DNT) to Hemevan in Sweden. I met them in the Dalavardo cabin there. It was 2017, there was a huge late season snow that year. I flew out of Hemevan "airport" on May 12th and it was still snowing heavily as I left. There was just about 24 hour sun which was amazing to be able to ski in!

Finnmark looks beautiful this week, cold and clear.

I love skiing in Trondelag north of the rail line that runs from Trondheim towards Storlien. Almost nobody skis there, they are all to the south in Sylan a popular area for tours. But the problem is weather- that area is getting creamed by a 2 degree increase resulting in frequent winter rains these days.

PS: Sorry I meant whinging pom not fjell-abe : )

[TallGrass]

Hard as nails will be canadian soldiers when they have completed their training at Petawawa camp
Date 3/1/1941
Canada. Canadian Army (subject)
Toronto Star (Firm) (publisher)

Original Toronto Star caption: Hard as nails will be canadian soldiers when they have completed their training at Petawawa camp. Fancy ski work is not taught; the idea being that the men shuffle along until they become unconscious of their skis or snowshoes. Here's what they carry.



Source: https://digitalarchive.tpl.ca/objects/3 ... have-compl

[randoskier]

Hard as nails will be canadian soldiers when they have completed their training at Petawawa camp
Date 3/1/1941
Canada. Canadian Army (subject)
Toronto Star (Firm) (publisher)

Original Toronto Star caption: Hard as nails will be canadian soldiers when they have completed their training at Petawawa camp. Fancy ski work is not taught; the idea being that the men shuffle along until they become unconscious of their skis or snowshoes. Here's what they carry.



Source: https://digitalarchive.tpl.ca/objects/3 ... have-compl

That was what 1950s or 50s? Tallgrass you are very interested in the military- did you ever wear your country's uniform? or are you just a gamer or armchair cheerleader? You seem to be quite ill-informed about military matters in general.

[randoskier]

Hard as nails will be canadian soldiers when they have completed their training at Petawawa camp
Date 3/1/1941
Canada. Canadian Army (subject)
Toronto Star (Firm) (publisher)

Original Toronto Star caption: Hard as nails will be canadian soldiers when they have completed their training at Petawawa camp. Fancy ski work is not taught; the idea being that the men shuffle along until they become unconscious of their skis or snowshoes. Here's what they carry.



Source: https://digitalarchive.tpl.ca/objects/3 ... have-compl

That was what 1950s or 50s? Tallgrass you are very interested in the military- did you ever wear your country's uniform? or are you just a gamer or armchair cheerleader? You seem to be quite ill-informed about military matters in general. Did any Canadian ski troops fight at all in ww2? If so I am not aware of it (it is quite possible but I can not find a record of it) . In fact the engagement of the 10th Mountain from the US was for a very short time here in Italy near the end of the war.