This is the World Famous TelemarkTalk / TelemarkTips / Telemark Francais Forum, by far the most dynamic telemark and backcountry skiing discussion board on the world wide web since 1998. East, West, North, South, Canada, US or Europe, Backcountry or not.
This is the World Famous TelemarkTalk / TelemarkTips / Telemark Francais Forum, by far the most dynamic telemark and backcountry skiing discussion board on the world wide web since 1998. East, West, North, South, Canada, US or Europe, Backcountry or not.
This is the World Famous TelemarkTalk / TelemarkTips Forum, by far the most dynamic telemark and backcountry skiing discussion board on the world wide web. We have fun here, come on in and be a part of it.
In the diagram I screen shotted from the ^ resource, I drew an arrow where you've finished the turn, are traversing a bit to the right, and then MAGICALLY have turned to the left to be in the fall line.
HOW DO YOU GET THAT WAY IF YOU'VE BEEN TURNING RIGHT?
I drew my own diagram showing where I'm confused.
Is there some kind of other, non-snow plow, non-parallel, non-telemark kind of turn that gets you there?
How do you get from the inside edge of the left ski in a right turn, to the inside edge of the right ski in a left turn when alpine skiing?
Don't overthink it, the timing is about the same.
Are you having trouble with this while telemark skiing, or have you not started yet, but don't understand the concept looking at diagrams. If it's the latter, just go ski and I think it'll come to you.
If you have started and are having trouble with timing on the lead change, as you get to the end of the turn, with the outside ski forward, you can sort of step forward - or slide forward - as you change edges, with the other ski. That will be your lead change.
There are two schools schools of thought on this. I’ve read both. One school posits that you slide the former front foot forward. For me, I do much better moving the outside foot back, and concentrating on changing from big toe to little toe (key point) on that foot. For me, the new outside foot does what it is supposed to do quite naturally.
For me proper unweighting is quite natural from those many years of alpine skiing. For me sliding the new inside foot back, and getting on the little toe is the juice that makes it all work. The pole plant and unweighting are so natural to me, I don’t think about it. For me it’s just standard PSIA.
Try both methods and see what works for you
you're going to get many different responses and most will be correct. You gotta find your own way that works for you so keep in mind that there's no absolute correct method. The way I visualize and execute lead/direction changes is by unweighting while simultaneously shuffling both skis into their new positions. Push off the edges from your last turn to unweight and shuffle your skis: front one back and back one forward at the same time with the skis flat. Once I've made the transition from one side to the other, I'll immediately start to engage the edges. Make sure you weight is forward and shins Pressuring the cuffs. Shuffling helps me stay balanced for/after better than lunging one ski back or forward and also seems to help facilitate quicker lead changes for tight turns. Oh, and practice!
There are two schools schools of thought on this. I’ve read both. One school posits that you slide the former front foot forward. For me, I do much better moving the outside foot back, and concentrating on changing from big toe to little toe (key point) on that foot. For me, the new outside foot does what it is supposed to do quite naturally.
For me proper unweighting is quite natural from those many years of alpine skiing. For me sliding the new inside foot back, and getting on the little toe is the juice that makes it all work. The pole plant and unweighting are so natural to me, I don’t think about it. For me it’s just standard PSIA.
Try both methods and see what works for you
Yeah, I think it's useful to be able to slide a ski back, slide a ski forward or do both simultaneously. All of those techniques have their place. I probably use the "pull a foot back" technique at least half the time.
I'd point out some downsides of the slide a foot back technique but only for a beginner, not an experienced telemark skier.
If you are on active gear - stiff boot, active binding - it can be hard to slide a foot back because of the resistance to raising a heel. By moving a foot back, you don't automatically get pressure against the cuff of that back boot to the extent that you do if you slide the new ski forward - as a beginner. Quite often, I'll see a beginner use this technique and toward the end of a turn, the trailing ski heel drops, the ski shoots forward, and they end in a parallel turn just because they aren't getting that pressure on the cuff and keeping it there.
My first experience that got my attention on this was when I got my first NTN setup with Rottefella Freeride (Not Freedom) bindings. My technique was heavily in the slide a foot back realm and the first day I thought I'd forgotten how to telemark. It was because the spring was so stiff, and onset so fast, that without REALLY pressuring the cuff, I just couldn't raise the heel. Once you figure that out, it works fine, but it can really be a hindrance until you do.
If you are on 75mm, even a stiff setup, I don't think that's an issue, but for NTN it can be.
Simultaneous movement of l, r foot keeps weight better balanced during the transition, adds a bit of torque to initiate the turn. Look in the direction of where you want to go to… shoulders follow head, hips follow shoulders.
On rotation, force will try to pull upper body the opposite direction of the turn. Two ways to counter this… lower center of gravity (knees bent) to reduce the force.. lean in opposite direction to resist the force. Dropping that inside leg is what creates the lean… not tilt, shift of the body, hips. Key difference between alpine, tele. Can be hard habit to break.
@Montana St Alum Thank you for the heads up warning about a more active system. When I start next season lift served on a new ski (piste oriented), new boot, and TTS. I wasn’t planning on learning to ski again!
@Montana St Alum Thank you for the heads up warning about a more active system. When I start next season lift served on a new ski (piste oriented), new boot, and TTS. I wasn’t planning on learning to ski again!
In the diagram I screen shotted from the ^ resource, I drew an arrow where you've finished the turn, are traversing a bit to the right, and then MAGICALLY have turned to the left to be in the fall line.
HOW DO YOU GET THAT WAY IF YOU'VE BEEN TURNING RIGHT?
I drew my own diagram showing where I'm confused.
Is there some kind of other, non-snow plow, non-parallel, non-telemark kind of turn that gets you there?
I'd say the diagram is totally wrong, and videos like the above show it to be wrong. The change doesn't happen mid bend (the farthest to the left or right going down hill) as that would make you go straight. The change happens when you're traversing, where the brown popsicle sticks cross that VERTICAL black line, not the HORIZONTAL one. I think the illustrator just got turned 90-degrees in his head.
And if he made that glaring mistake, how many other... ?
Keep in mind:
Just because your skis are even or staggered does NOT indicate if or which way you'll turn as when going XC (versus downhill) you are constantly "shuffling" your feet as you "walk" meaning the skis are Left-lead, Even, Right-lead, Even, (repeat) all while going straight.
If you don't switch/crossover, you turn uphill or continue traversing along the slope like this with skis parallel-ish:
Blue is the turn, Red is the switch. (_____ ._____) (_____ ._____) (_____ ._____) (_____ ._____) ( .\ ..) ./ ( .\ ..) ./ ( .\ ..) ./
When you get more fluid, you can "link turns" without the "straight" part such as: ( . ) ( . ) ( . ) ( . ) ( . )
The transition . happens between the ( and the ), or ) and (.
The other thing to look for snow spray. Look at the slow-mo video around 2:23. See how he stops kicking up snow when switching? And how he's kicking it up through out the turn (change in direction, or "vector" in physics-speak)? Equal and opposite actions: snow flies one way, the skier the other, continually changing the arrow of where pointed to the left or right respectively.
Were one to switch while pointed downhill, they'd be doing a "garland" like the first 20 seconds of this video (I can't watch more, his voice is ... um... like Bill Burr's imitating someone who annoys him )
Here's another...
Red are turns, Green are "garlands" (because they look like ropes of garland as they spiral around a tree in a series of arcs -- makes for a Froelich Xmas atmosphere.) (____ .......\____ ..............\____ .....................\____ ......................____) ...............____/ ........____/ .____/ (____ .......\____ ..............\____ .....................\____ ......................____) ...............____/ ........____/ .____/ (____ .......\____ ..............\____ .....................\____ ......................____) ...............____/ ........____/ .____/
It’s tricky… explanation depends on the geometry of the turns.
Large transfer, short advance vs small transfer, long advance vs short advance, small transfer. Then impact of slope, speed. A skier can continually make abrupt moving (short advance) or taking long pauses between movement (long advance). Broken flow… lack of skier judgement. Not basic skill… because all elements needed to achieve both geometries of turn. Judgement.
you'll end up doing something more like this: \_ ...\_ ......\_ .........\_ ............\_ ...............\_
Yup. That (small transfer, short advance) demonstrates the worst judgement of all. Might be doing tele like things, but not tele turns. Childish, pointless.
