Terminology: The "Lambda" Tele' Turn

[TallGrass]

Gets bogged back down with the lambda stuff… which is nothing more than a loosely interpreted stem Christie. Still a stem Christie tho…

Explain what the javelin does that a parallel turn doesn’t. Hint: Nothing.

Wrong on both. Former differs on edge use. Latter differs on skill and balance, just for starters.

"Loosely interpreted" is like fudging the details to make different things appear alike (common downside of Cognitive Misering).

[Montana St Alum]

This is a little long, but it's trying to tease out what each ski is doing, what each edge is/isn't doing, how skis are oriented to each other, and so on.

Skis: Parallel or Wedge
Skis: Even or Staggered
Left Ski Edge: Inner, Outer, or Neutral (flat or off the ground)
Right Ski Edge: Inner, Outer, or Neutral (flat or off the ground)

If you're good at math, you can see 36 combinations (P/W * E/S * L-I/O/N * R-I/O/N... 2 * 2 * 3 * 3). Let's come back to this later...

It really is just the Tele version of a Stem Christie. I’ve been calling it a Stem Tele for years

I also think of it as a stem christie. I think it can be a useful tool in skiing set up bumps to scrub speed quickly, at least in one application. ... if I slide out the right ski a bit and then "check" with application of the edge, that will slow me a bit, or at least stop the acceleration. ... I don't use it much, but when I need it, it's nice to have in the tool box.

Yet is it though? What we "think", "feel", "call" something can be misleading, even the opposite to what is actually going on.

For example, many people "think" to get a bicycle/motorcycle to turn Left, you turn the handlebars to the Left, when in fact you turn them to the Right ("countersteer") in order to get it to lean in, requisite for a turn. Some even say you "steer below 8mph" and "countersteer above 8mph" but have no explanation of what you do AT 8mph thus the paradox of "how does the bike know which way to turn and how much at 8mph?" (Truth: you countersteer at all speeds, they just don't notice it until around 8mph, then conflate 'feeling' with measurement.)

Various Turn Types:
Parallel Turns
Carving Turns
Snowplow/Wedge Turns
Telemark Turns
... Dolphin, Jump, Kick, etc.

Stem Christie??? While we rightly pay a lot of attention to the direction each ski is pointing (relative to skier and slope), what is just as important (and possibly more so, especially on hard pack and if can do a Sliding 360-Spin down the fall line keeping both skis in contact) is what the edges are doing.








Parallel Turn: in a right turn, both inside-turn edges (left-inside, right-OUTSIDE) bite
Snowplow & Stem Christie: in a right turn the left-inside & right-INSIDE edges bite, the former turn turning and the latter braking


Brief segway...
Javelin Turns
I'd never heard of these until today, though I was doing something similar (doing Parallel Turns lifting the inside-turn ski off the ground to ski on one ski) playing around last week, I just didn't cross the raised ski over, or over much.

Folks don't even agree on what a proper Javelin Turn is (I personally look at it as varying degrees of stretching).

(Sorry about the info-mercial voice...)


(Sorry about the pre-school music...)


(Better, but where's my Rave Ball...)



So...
in a RIGHT TURN...
Parallel Turn: right-OUTSIDE edge bites
Snowplow & Stem Christie: right-INSIDE edge bites
Javeline Turn: NEITHER edge (of the right-side ski) bites

Now...
in a RIGHT TURN...
Telemark Turn: (what are the edges doing on the right ski?)
Lambda Turn: (what are the edges doing on the right ski?)

Hold that thought for a minute...

It depends on what kind of ski you are using.

If the skis you are on have enough sidecut by themselves, a "staggered parallel turn" works great.

If your skis are fairly straight, and you want to create more sidecut, the "lambda" creates a virtual sidecut between the two skis, that helps you turn faster than just the ski sidecut itself would accomplish.

So, could it be thus:

in a RIGHT TURN...
Telemark Turn: PARALLEL* skis; right-OUTSIDE edge bites (BOTH edges turning/carving)
"Stem" Tele' Turn: WEDGE* skis; right-INSIDE edge bites (braking, while the other ski turns/carves)
Lambda Tele' Turn: WEDGE* skis; right-OUTSIDE edge bites (BOTH edges turning/carving)

* Outside ski leading, in contrast to Alpine where skis are nearly even or inside ski/knee leading

To revisit...

Skis: Parallel or Wedge
Skis: Even or Staggered
Left Ski Edge: Inner, Outer, or Neutral (flat or off the ground)
Right Ski Edge: Inner, Outer, or Neutral (flat or off the ground)

If you're good at math, you can see 36* combinations (P/W * E/S * L-I/O/N * R-I/O/N... 2 * 2 * 3 * 3). Let's come back to this later...

to the right
Telemark Turn: P S LI RO
"Stem" Tele' Turn: W S LO RO
Lambda Tele' Turn: W S LI RO
Javeline Turn: P E LI RN, or W E LI RN

* Those math-inclined might notice there will be mirror images in those 36 thus it can be reduced where L and R are combined (e.g. P E LI RO and P E LO RI is the same technique, just different directions... Parallel right turn and Parallel left turn). That still leaves open the possibility of ! 18 ! different stances, some of which are disastrous (P E LI RI is Snowplow, while P E LO RO will...).

Okay, lambda it is for left turns (backwards) lambda for right turns?

[Manney]

"Loosely interpreted" is like fudging the details to make different things appear alike (common downside of Cognitive Misering).

I see what you mean… Rather like fudging the form to make it appear different.

[TallGrass]

"Loosely interpreted" is like fudging the details to make different things appear alike (common downside of Cognitive Misering).

I see what you mean… Rather like fudging the form to make it appear different.

No, you're conflating description with action, what's in the mind with what's physic-ally happening. See "countersteering" above.

[Manney]

I’m seeing a poor stem Christie… though I understand the motive for wanting to call it something else.

Newsflash… a skier is not a motorcycle.

[Stephen]

I think of a "telemark turn" as being "staggered parallel" whereas what I'm doing is more of a "staggered snowplow" which for simplicity's sake I'm calling it a "Lambda" because, well, just look:

Simplistically, focusing on “most of the time” situations, and ignoring all the subtleties of possible variations and intentions, I would say, based on my own experience, that:

The variation in ski angle is generally a deficiency in coordination and skill.
Skiing Parallel, I have no problem keeping my skis pointed in the same direction.
There may occasionally be some stemming involved as conditions become more challenging.
Skiing Parallel, both legs and knees are in very similar orientations / angulations.
Both feet are close to each other and the commands to stay pointed in the same direction are similar.

Skiing Telemark, the legs and feet are in very different orientations, and it’s more challenging for my brain to control each leg and foot in such a way as to keep the skis parallel. The motor signals to each appendage are much different than in Parallel.
So, in Telemark, I often think the skis are parallel, but when I look, the inside ski is stemmed in.
I’ll then adjust and try to record what that feels like so I can repeat in future turns.
That’s been my experience with heavier gear.

Like @riel said earlier, on light gear (longer skies, double camber, less leverage with boots and bindings) stemming the back ski can make it easier to turn. I would actually say, its more a matter of stemming the lead ski like a rudder, to generate more turning force.
That also provides a better platform for balance.

Not saying I’m right, just my understanding…

[fisheater]

Hello TallGrass,
I have no more interest in debating what I know as fact, than I did debating activity of bindings and pressuring the front of the ski with the Canadian guy whom ticked people off.
In a right parallel turn the inside edge of the outside ski has the most pressure on it.
In the Stem Christie we teach the skier to angulate the body over that outside ski (the left ski in a right turn). However, the skier skier is still wedging the right ski, as they have not yet learned any parallel turning technique. The exercise teaches how to get the weight over the outside ski. In doing so, it becomes easy for the inside ski to slide in parallel to the outside ski.
We also teach to bend the knees more through the turn as they progress across the fall line. As they come across the fall line, we teach them to rise up, and allow the edges to release. They naturally get right back into the wedge. Then they repeat the process.
I taught well over a thousand of those lessons. Back when I taught the peculiarities of the terrain at that resort required kids on a discounted school group ticket to pass the Stem Christie test on right and left sides to be allowed to ride the lifts. If a kid didn’t pass, I would have them jump in my next class. If I didn’t have another class, I would work with them a little more to get them through. I’m sure there were a couple that I couldn’t teach, or they decided they would practice more on the bunny hill, but I was able to pass easily 99 % of them. That was without lowering standards, as to be able to ride the lifts back then had terrain that required a solid Stem Christie to safely negotiate.
Bottom line, Stem Christie starts with engagement of inside edges on both inside and outside ski. However the objective is for the inside edge of the inside ski to release and slide parallel to the outside ski.

Also the process is called a turn. The elements of the turn are edging, rotation, weighting, and unweighting. I don’t say this to be snarky, it’s just not proper terminology and downright confusing when you discuss turning, but include turning as an element of turning. Also you rotate the ski in many turning techniques.
I’m out of this discussion. I’m on a solid basis with PSIA technique, I’ve shared what I know to be factual, people can accept it as fact or not. I have no appetite for any more discussion.
Peace, I’m out!

[Manney]

I think you’re right, Stephen. In a tele, the lead and trailing skis are angled to create a continuous edge. The orientation of that edge is what drives the turn… even when weighting is 50-50, which is good tele practice.

In this lambda (aka poorly executed stem Christie), unequal edging and angulation drives the turn. Normally edging would do the trick just fine… the unequal angulation needed for the turn suggests problems elsewhere… edging, weighting.

Orientation, edging, weighting being the three fundamentals common to all skiing movements according to PSIA.

[Stephen]

Newsflash… a skier is not a motorcycle.

Good golly, can we just quit jabbing at each other here?
I’m not jumping in to defend @TallGrass or his use of analogies.
He didn’t equate motorcycles and skiers, but even if he did, those kinds of responses just add negativity to the space.
This is not meant as a jab at you — you’re not the only one.
It would just be great if we could get past this sort of thing!

Thanks.

[Manney]

It’s not jabbing. Tall is making a connection based on a vehicle that bears little resemblance to a skier. Didn’t challenge him on this initially… let it slide. Then he used it to justify things again… so this is what appears to be taking him in a weird direction.

Maybe I should have posted a reply… like, there there you’re right. The equivalent of patting a child on the head when they say something stupid. That’s not kindness, or even good manners in adult discussion.