The no kill diet?

[MikeK]

Does such a thing exist?

Umm - let me explain. So vegetarians don't eat meat. Pescetarians don't eat land or air animals. Vegans don't use animal products. But they all kill things...

Many vegans kill plants to eat them but have no qualms of doing so. I've often badgered my vegan sister with this argument that just because a plant doesn't scream, doesn't mean you aren't killing it. She doesn't seem to care. For her it's a lot to do with how animals are treated in the food industry... and I get that. It ain't like the farm we grew up on.

So for whatever reason I had the thought... and I'm sure it's not unique, but what if you were only a scavenger? What if you only ate things that were or could be alive, but didn't kill anything in the process... regardless of whether it was plant, animal or fungi? The closest people who I could think of that follow this on a dietary principle are Hindus - but they still kill plants, I think...

So, say for instance, an apple or an egg. They are similar in some ways. They have living cells and could become living creatures, but consuming them doesn't really kill anything existing. Drinking milk from a goat or a cow doesn't kill the cow. Picking berries from a bush doesn't kill the bush. To me it's the same thing.

I brought this up with my wife and we had a long discussion about it. There are many grey areas. What about annual plants like lettuce. You kill the lettuce when you eat it but it was going to go to seed and die anyway. I think it's still killing something to consume it - be it vegan and vegetarian. The only things that qualify are fruits, nuts, things made from animals that doesn't involve killing them. Also I went even deeper and started wondering well what about using dead animal parts? If you don't kill the animal, does it fit the philosophy to perhaps use the skin and bone for things? I think it does. All hypothetical constructs of my mind - but valid questions to one who has concerns about how their diet impacts other creatures.

I've long ago realized I'm a naturalist. Nature is cruel. It doesn't care about killing for survival of a species - it thrives on it in fact. I don't much like killing things, but I would say I was the least affected when the animals went to the slaughter house. I was also very thankful and careful not to waste them when I cooked them and ate them.

[connyro]

I guess we both have a little time on our hands today, MikeK!

I was also very thankful and careful not to waste them when I cooked them and ate them.

I think this is the best way to 'respect' the food you eat. Don't waste it, prepare it well, and have an understanding of where it came from.

What about vegetarians who ski in leather boots? Is it OK to use leather but morally oppose eating animals? That seems like it would be hard to resolve...

[CIMA]

No people were born to be vegetarians, proletarians or vegans. Some of them have been enlightened at certain points of their lives and turned the haters of certain foods as a result. Before their enlightenment, there must have been their self-awareness. In still former time, they must have learned their languages. If they didn't have their languages, they wouldn't show specific preferences for foods except for the choices depending on their instincts. Their current eating habit may be similar to ones' choices of religions. It would be difficult for different parties to understand one another and may find fault with the creed of their counterpart.

[Johnny]

Mike, you're a very wise guy. You have an engineer's mind, you can understand the most complex things. I'm pretty sure you can solve this one by yourself. I'm not gonna give you the answer on a golden platter, that would be too easy. You have to really, really want to know the truth for the truth to reveal itself to you. But you're very good, you're on the right path... You're very close...!

No people were born to be vegetarians, proletarians or vegans

We all are. We are just so fucking dumb, epicurean and self-centered that it took us centuries to realize it. Oh wait, sorry, we haven't yet...

It's simply part of humanity's learning process. Controlling our physical desires and our animal instincts is the hardest thing, very few people are wise enough to achieve it. It's like controlling skis on NNN gear, it requires devotion and the very finest skills to do it. Only the best can do it. But once you get a grasp at this pure wisdom, there's no turning back.

[connyro]

So what about vegans using leather boots? Justifying that would require some extraordinary enlightenment!

[MikeK]

I'm not sure I'm trying to figure it out Johnny... err at least from an ethics (and possibly Hindu/Buddhists) standpoint, no kill makes the most sense. I'm just wondering if there is a name for it?

Connyro - I think most vegans don't follow the path I am suggesting. I certainly do not.

As wise or as foolish as some say I am - I also do not recognize a god or a higher power. I don't deny it either. I believe whatever may or may not have made this universe (and others - yes I subscribe to the multiverse theories although the data is not conclusive to prove them) can never be proven or denied by humans - it's simply beyond human comprehension. I used to argue it all the time, but now I just simply say "I don't know" - because I don't, and neither does anyone else.

Sometimes I think animals retain much of what I think we lack. I recall in church when I was young the priest saying animals cannot love and do not go to heaven. I shut off right then and there. I think dogs (as an example) love more purely and unconditionally than any human can. To deny that seems blind.

My point above makes it very difficult for me to kill anything. But then I also look at how nature behaves - be it on a micro scale or macro, and I can't deny that I am a life form than can only exist by consuming other life (heterotroph). Those that can chemosynthesize or photosynthesize do not have such constraints. They can make life from what we classify as non-life. And they made me. I cannot exist without them, as hard as I may try. To try to break away from that and subside on purely artificial sugars and nutrients seems to go against our biology - it always seems to have some sort of negative side-effect. But as I suggest in the OP, there may be ways to minimize the impact and live naturally if one is so inclined.

[MikeK]

Another thing is it's so easy to be negative and point the finger and call vegans (or whomever) hypocrites for wearing leather shoes and abstaining from burgers and steak.

What if we said, "Thank you friend for saving all those cows that you didn't eat."?

No one does that. But in reality does everyone get a 100% on everything in school? Why do we expect they do that in life?

[connyro]

Meh, I don't like or dislike vegans/vegetarians. To each their own. Life is full of contradiction and we are all guilty of it from time to time. But just like someone's religion, I don't care much for those who want to impress their narrow and sometimes flawed faith or ideals down anyone else's throat. Western culture is based on consumption and gluttony, and we are almost all guilty. Got a car? Kids? Pets? A nice warm house heated with fossil fuels? Skis and other stuff that's made out of plastic? Expensive (or even cheap) beer? They luxury of choosing your diet based on principals? Exotic or out of season ingredients shipped in from far away? Time and calories to expend on recreational pursuits like skiing? Yeah, all pretty much gluttonous and/or unnecessary consumption if you think about it.

Vegans or vegetarians oftentimes don't even consider the heavy use of animal based fertilizers (bone meal, bloodmeal, etc) or pesticides that are used to raise the crops that go into making food for us. Or the underpaid migrant workers that harvest food. What about all the field animals that are mutilated or die during planting, tilling, pesticide/herbicide application, and harvest? What about the lost habitat that occurs when we create more agricultural space to grow less-efficient organic crops?

One other thought: We've got a food co-op in town here. It's staffed by a crowd that you often-times see outside smoking ciggs, yet they talk about vegetarian/vegan this or that and healthy non-gmo or oganic or unprocessed food and how important it is for healthy living. What's the point of all that if you smoke? It's like an obese person lecturing about healthy living and eating. It's just silly, sometimes contradictory ideals that people generally seem interested in, not the reality of it all.

[MikeK]

I hear ya... that's why I try not to be too radical or rash in any of my life choices. It just seems I can do what I can to not piss on anyone else's parade without having people step all over me. It's a real tough balance, like anything, and like most, I kinda suck at it haha.

[Johnny]

So what about vegans using leather boots? Justifying that would require some extraordinary enlightenment!

Oh, the answer is very, very simple! Just think about it for an hour and you'll find the answer. Seriously, try it. Take an hour, before you go to sleep or when you wake up in the morning and meditate on it. You'll see how good it feels to live in Love's kingdom...

now I just simply say "I don't know" - because I don't, and neither does anyone else.

Dear Mike, that's a bit harsh... Not because "you" don't know doesn't mean everybody else don't...