Breathable Mid Layer

[JB TELE]

Try Polartec Alpha layers

It's not fair to suggest Polartec Alpha layers because they are so hard to obtain. I tried snagging a Senchi multiple times and got burned by faster clickers. It's not a realistic option yet.

[JB TELE]

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... f_Moisture

The aim of the research was an attempt to determinate the thermal conductivity of insulating knitted fabrics, hydrophilic (wool knitted fabric) and hydrophobic (polyester fleece fabric – polartec) ones with various comparable amount of moisture in them. In the study a special measuring system was used. An overall thermal transmittance of the samples varying in moisture content has been measured and a thermal conductivity was calculated and analyzed. The experiment showed that dry samples of polyester knitted fabric (polartec) are warmer than dry wool samples, which is connected with their bigger thickness. However, when an increase in moisture of samples occurs, a sudden decrease of their thermal properties is observed. The wool fabric instead, despite containing the same amount of moisture does not change their good insulating properties.

My personal preference is for things that are dirt cheap and perform like something out of Area 51. Haven’t been able to find anything like that yet, so my personal experience is that going cheap on things doesn’t achieve the desired outcome.

The price differential between high performance synthetics and certain wool blends is small. It’s possible to flip the paradigm by hunting for deals, buying out of season, end of lines etc. So it really comes down to performance.

Thanks for sharing that. I know that wool absorbs a certain percentage of water in a way where it's not directly touching your skin, making it feel drier and less thermally conductive. One could argue that synthetics, since they dry faster, lead to overall better insulation throughout a trip. But that's situational and hard to measure. Stuck in your rain gear in a wet enviroment all day vs cold and dry.

The other consideration is the texture of the fleece. Super fluffy fleece like polarctec thermal pro has less surface contact with your skin so less thermal conduction. When I first got into packrafting, I didn't own a dry suit and I would wear a thermal pro top and thermal pro pants under rain gear. I dumped few times and stayed warm enough. Obviously full saturation is not likely when skiing.

It would be interesting to compare a damp thermal pro with a damp dense wool. I suppose a fluffy knit wool sweater could be comparable to a thermal pro.

I don't really have strong opinions on any of this, but I do know that thick wool socks keep we warm hiking through rain in non waterproof shoes until it starts snowing. So I am a believer in wool being a bit warmer when damp and wet.

[Manney]

Some of it gets back to fast drying… We know that evaporation liberates heat. [Easy to observe… wet your hand with vodka and put near a fan. It will dry quickly but will feel cold. Do the same with olive oil (non toxic, very slow to evaporate). Won’t even feel cool. Both liquids, both fans. Only difference is rate of evaporation.]

So a fabric’s ability to hold water, keep it away from skin, but not release it quickly won’t contribute as much to evaporative cooling. Still leaves conduction, radiation, etc. for heat loss… which is why there’s no *perfect* solution atm.

My sense is that synthetics can work extremely well in an insulation layer. Wool is no slouch in this area but it is heavy when woven into a comparably thick weave. Rafting??? Wouldn’t choose wool for that. Too much risk of total wetting, too heavy when wet.

Outer layer skiing? Could go either way, as long as it’s breathable. Heck, even (waxed in the right areas) cotton works in a shell, even though it is dreadful for base layers.

[JB TELE]

Cotton canvas shells for dry cold:
https://empirecanvasworks.com/product-category/shells/

[Manney]

Yeah, those are awesome. Looked at them before.

Probably going to get a Fjallraven Anorak no8, just because the M fits me just right (they’re generously sized) and the have a few extra features. Greenland wax on the shoulders and seat extension… maybe kangaroo pocket. Keep the rest unfinished.

[mca80]

Cotton canvas shells for dry cold:
https://empirecanvasworks.com/product-category/shells/

Childhood friend of mine in MN likes their gear. I have a pair of choppers from a maker in Ely, north of Duluth, that were cheaper and which I like, but Empire's stuff looks solid.

Re wool, if it isn't absolutely pouring out but steady rain or less I will just wear a couple layers of wool in these temps (40s) and I do not feel wet nor cold, and can be out for several hours.

[Manney]

Frost River Choppers are superb.

Here’s an interesting video. Need to listen carefully and consider use-scenarios and activity levels before jumping onboard this, or any other, outerwear train.

[tkarhu]

Howdy,

I run extremely hot when touring. I often ski in a hoody base layer and soft shell pants. When I get cold I try throwing on my mid layer but end up getting way too hot and sweating like a pig. I tried the Pataguci R1 and Arc’teryx Proton but those are way too hot and end up taking them off. Any recommendations to try for this season?

Thanks

Maybe long johns of some kind would work? Basically any long sleeve set of underwear, either shirt, pants or both.

For winter sports, I personally use 200-250 g merino, when necessary. Thinner is not durable enough, and much thicker than that gets hot too often. Basic synthetic materials have worked alright, too. I use thicker mid layers (like fleece sweaters) mainly, when camping.

EDIT: If you get hot easily, a running windshirt may also work as a top layer. I have a few Haglögs Shield Jackets myself. Or maybe a winter road cyclng jersey without any other layers? For example, Endura FS260-Pro Jetstream has been great for XC skiing, too. When necessary, you can also pair it with a baselayer shirt. As a bonus, cycling jerseys have nice back pockets that can fit an extra pair of gloves, a beanie plus some snacks.

[Telerock]

I expect this cotton comment to draw a raft of $h!t; but here is my option for upper wear; mostly used for a 1-2 hr uphill slog, followed by a few hours up-and-down 100-200 ft cols, then by the easy glide out. It costs $500-700.
I bring two cotton tee-shirts; and wear one on the way up, then change to the dry one at the top (some women do this too).
I have a moreno wool shirt next, with both a wool and leather vest; mostly shed during safety breaks on the way up, and put back on at the top. A Johnson Mills, Vt. wool coat is the outer layer; it is mostly breeze proof, and the leather vest breaks the noreaster winds.
Hats: a wool tuch (not synthetic, Italy makes some ones that don’t itch), a cotton ball cap, and a beaver felt Stetson, worn as appropriate, sometimes together.
OSHA clear safety glasses $12 ( ones with readers available).

[Manney]

Everything benefits from context…

If you’re operating with minimal support for 1-2 weeks, value extreme durability and washability, are on a budget, multi system synthetics present a powerful case.

If you’re doing day trips, 1-3 nights, etc and want warmth, minimal layers, natural odor control, and fire retardancy (don’t laugh, fires and twig stoves cause sparks that will burn holes in the most expensive gortex shells), wool inner and waxed canvas outer shells work very well.

If you don’t care about any of this because your sessions are less than a handful or hours, practically anything can work.. as long as the session ends in a warm, dry house with a washing machine.

Mixing and matching systems is OK as long as you understand what each layer should be doing (vapor transport, insulation, wind blocking, water stopping).