I'm looking for advice on ski width and stiffness.
I've been telemarking on long thin skis with 75mm bindings for 32 years and am looking to switch to NTN with a more modern ski shape. On a whim I bought new Scarpa TX Pros and now I'm looking for skis and don't know where to start. I'm thinking Outlaw-X bindings (open to suggestions there too).
I'm 6'2" (188cm), 200lbs, and ski mostly Tahoe California groomers and moguls, plus powder when I can get it (rare) and "Sierra Cement" (slush). I'm looking to switch because I ski less these days and when I do I have trouble keeping up with my 9yo twins who ski alpine.
Current skis are Fischer Crown length: 210cm width: 64mm/52mm/62mm (before that similar Black Diamond Vectors) with leather lace up boots and Hammerhead bindings.
I think I want a ski around 188cm long but unsure what width and stiffness. From what I've read I probably want 80-100mm with sidecut around 18m radius. Any suggestions on width and stiffness and what skis to look at would really help. Any other advice on switching ski width and switching 75mm->NTN is welcome too! Thank you!
Ski advice on switch from thin 75mm to NTN
-
Capercaillie
- Posts: 257
- Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:35 pm
- Location: western Canada
- Ski style: trying not to fall too much
- Favorite Skis: Åsnes Ingstad, Kazama Telemark Comp
- Favorite boots: Alfa Horizon, Crispi Nordland, Scarpa T4
Re: Ski advice on switch from thin 75mm to NTN
Hello and welcome to the forum!
As a fellow skinny ski enthusiast (71-59-66 Rossignol Haute Route Telemarks with NNN-BC for this season's downhill setup for the local hill) who likes to try out many different skis and also bought the new Scarpa TX Pros and is currently breaking them in, I can share my experience. That experience is about 10x shorter than yours, so feel free to ignore.
It sounds like you like your gear to last. Are you going to tour? The touring mode latches in bindings like Outlaw X and Bishops will develop play over time, and might even crack. The non-touring versions like the Bandit won't have this problem.
Similar with skis. A lot of skis today have poorly reinforced mounting areas, and paulownia or caruba cores, which are prone to binding pull-out, or splitting in half. Josh Madsen has a good Freeheel Life podcast episode about this:
I have tried a handful of skis 76-88mm underfoot, and all are disappointing. They feel too wide for good carving, and too narrow for chopped powder and especially for slush. I tried a 98mm waist ski for spring skiing last season, and the performance improvement in difficult snow is striking.
Right now I am breaking in the TX Pros on 22 Design Lynxes mounted on old 86mm Atomic skis with an 18m radius. Simultaneously too wide, too narrow, and too hooky in bad snow (and the Lynxes are too stiff). The 25m radius skis I have tried are easier to ski, and are much more stable at speed.
The other thing to consider is rocker and taper. A 178cm ski with 10% tail rocker and 20% tip rocker will have a 125cm effective running surface - the same as ski blades. Tips and tails will be tapered to match the rocker (five-point sidecut), so you have a ski blade effective edge.
Coming from 210cm Fischers, a 188cm rockered ski is going to feel short. My 98mm ski is a 174cm traditionally-shaped 2007 K2 Apache Chief. When I bought it I was not confident about being able to handle large skis, and decided to go short. It feels short. But that K2 has 8cm more effective edge and running surface than the supposedly longer 186cm 2013 model Fischer Big Stix 110 I bought to try this season. And many if not most current season skis have a lot more rocker and taper than those Fischers.
I have also read that too much tail rocker may not work well for telemarking, but have not tried any heavily tail rockered skis myself. If you are skiing 210cm Fischers with leather boots, you are obviously not hanging backseat off of the boot cuffs and don't need "help" releasing the tails, or whatever it is that tail rocker is supposed to do.
So if you want to keep up with your kids in any conditions, a long running surface, >20m radius ski, with normal tails, and a high-quality sintered base (may be the most important part), stout construction, around 95-100mm is probably the best bet. Which might be hard to find new among current season models. You could email Fey Brothers for a recommendation: https://aspinockwoods.com/ Their in-house SummitCone skis are very highly reviewed. I would also consider https://heritagelabskis.com/
As a fellow skinny ski enthusiast (71-59-66 Rossignol Haute Route Telemarks with NNN-BC for this season's downhill setup for the local hill) who likes to try out many different skis and also bought the new Scarpa TX Pros and is currently breaking them in, I can share my experience. That experience is about 10x shorter than yours, so feel free to ignore.
It sounds like you like your gear to last. Are you going to tour? The touring mode latches in bindings like Outlaw X and Bishops will develop play over time, and might even crack. The non-touring versions like the Bandit won't have this problem.
Similar with skis. A lot of skis today have poorly reinforced mounting areas, and paulownia or caruba cores, which are prone to binding pull-out, or splitting in half. Josh Madsen has a good Freeheel Life podcast episode about this:
I have tried a handful of skis 76-88mm underfoot, and all are disappointing. They feel too wide for good carving, and too narrow for chopped powder and especially for slush. I tried a 98mm waist ski for spring skiing last season, and the performance improvement in difficult snow is striking.
Right now I am breaking in the TX Pros on 22 Design Lynxes mounted on old 86mm Atomic skis with an 18m radius. Simultaneously too wide, too narrow, and too hooky in bad snow (and the Lynxes are too stiff). The 25m radius skis I have tried are easier to ski, and are much more stable at speed.
The other thing to consider is rocker and taper. A 178cm ski with 10% tail rocker and 20% tip rocker will have a 125cm effective running surface - the same as ski blades. Tips and tails will be tapered to match the rocker (five-point sidecut), so you have a ski blade effective edge.
Coming from 210cm Fischers, a 188cm rockered ski is going to feel short. My 98mm ski is a 174cm traditionally-shaped 2007 K2 Apache Chief. When I bought it I was not confident about being able to handle large skis, and decided to go short. It feels short. But that K2 has 8cm more effective edge and running surface than the supposedly longer 186cm 2013 model Fischer Big Stix 110 I bought to try this season. And many if not most current season skis have a lot more rocker and taper than those Fischers.
I have also read that too much tail rocker may not work well for telemarking, but have not tried any heavily tail rockered skis myself. If you are skiing 210cm Fischers with leather boots, you are obviously not hanging backseat off of the boot cuffs and don't need "help" releasing the tails, or whatever it is that tail rocker is supposed to do.
So if you want to keep up with your kids in any conditions, a long running surface, >20m radius ski, with normal tails, and a high-quality sintered base (may be the most important part), stout construction, around 95-100mm is probably the best bet. Which might be hard to find new among current season models. You could email Fey Brothers for a recommendation: https://aspinockwoods.com/ Their in-house SummitCone skis are very highly reviewed. I would also consider https://heritagelabskis.com/
-
fisheater
- Posts: 2721
- Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2016 8:06 pm
- Location: Oakland County, MI
- Ski style: All my own, and age doesn't help
- Favorite Skis: Gamme 54, Falketind 62, I hope to add a third soon
- Favorite boots: Alpina Alaska, Alico Ski March
- Occupation: Construction Manager
Re: Ski advice on switch from thin 75mm to NTN
Hello, let’s start with the binding. I think Outlaw should be a good choice, but if it’s a resort set-up, do you need the free pivot? If not, you could save money going with the Bandit.
Now, for the skis. I had a similar problem before last season. I was looking for a resort ski. There certainly wasn’t a local ski shop I would trust for advice on a Tele ski. I knew I wanted a wood core ski, with glass reinforcement, and maybe some modern dampening. My biggest concern after construction, was would the ski flex properly with two footed weighting. I also knew of a couple skis guys talked about on here, Blizzard Brahma, and Elan Ripstick. It seemed like most of the skis were mid nineties underfoot, which seemed wide. I also thought about the Voile Vector, which is mid-90’s, but decided it most likely was a bit light.
I had done business with Fey Brothers, I figured they knew enough to get me on a ski that would flex properly. I could have ordered an Elan Ripstick or an Atomic offering from them. I actually preferred the construction of their Summitcone Pariah which was 97 mm underfoot. They also recommended a length of 177cm. So to my way of thinking they recommended a ski that was too wide and in a girl’s length.
It skis pretty well. It’s pretty quick edge to edge. I guess I don’t mind skiing girl’s skis. Last year Summitcone rolled out a mid-80’s version of this ski. I still think that is probably the sweet spot more my mostly Midwest piste skiing, but the Pariah performs as well as me.
I’m not saying the Pariah is the greatest ski out there. It performs for me, but then so did my black and purple K2 Extremes back in the day when Glen Plake and Scott Schmidt made ski movies.
Just get something mid eighties to nineties, glass reinforced, poplar maybe birch core, some of that rubber foil dampening won’t hurt, maybe a little metal. I didn’t want metal, I was afraid they would be to stiff. Then get the flex right. Nothing to it!
I trusted someone I thought I could trust that knew more than me, and it worked out.
Good luck and keep in touch
Bob
Oh yeah, listen to what @MSU Alum has to say. I think he wears out a pair of skis every year. He has forgotten more about skis than what I know
Now, for the skis. I had a similar problem before last season. I was looking for a resort ski. There certainly wasn’t a local ski shop I would trust for advice on a Tele ski. I knew I wanted a wood core ski, with glass reinforcement, and maybe some modern dampening. My biggest concern after construction, was would the ski flex properly with two footed weighting. I also knew of a couple skis guys talked about on here, Blizzard Brahma, and Elan Ripstick. It seemed like most of the skis were mid nineties underfoot, which seemed wide. I also thought about the Voile Vector, which is mid-90’s, but decided it most likely was a bit light.
I had done business with Fey Brothers, I figured they knew enough to get me on a ski that would flex properly. I could have ordered an Elan Ripstick or an Atomic offering from them. I actually preferred the construction of their Summitcone Pariah which was 97 mm underfoot. They also recommended a length of 177cm. So to my way of thinking they recommended a ski that was too wide and in a girl’s length.
It skis pretty well. It’s pretty quick edge to edge. I guess I don’t mind skiing girl’s skis. Last year Summitcone rolled out a mid-80’s version of this ski. I still think that is probably the sweet spot more my mostly Midwest piste skiing, but the Pariah performs as well as me.
I’m not saying the Pariah is the greatest ski out there. It performs for me, but then so did my black and purple K2 Extremes back in the day when Glen Plake and Scott Schmidt made ski movies.
Just get something mid eighties to nineties, glass reinforced, poplar maybe birch core, some of that rubber foil dampening won’t hurt, maybe a little metal. I didn’t want metal, I was afraid they would be to stiff. Then get the flex right. Nothing to it!
I trusted someone I thought I could trust that knew more than me, and it worked out.
Good luck and keep in touch
Bob
Oh yeah, listen to what @MSU Alum has to say. I think he wears out a pair of skis every year. He has forgotten more about skis than what I know
-
Montana St Alum
- Posts: 1260
- Joined: Thu Oct 22, 2020 6:42 pm
- Location: Wasatch, Utah
- Ski style: Old dog, new school
- Favorite Skis: Blizzard Rustler 9/10
- Favorite boots: Tx Pro
- Occupation: Retired, unemployable
Re: Ski advice on switch from thin 75mm to NTN
Hah - sadly, I'm at the age where I've forgotten more than I ever knew.
I think the advice you and @Capercaillie have shared is solid.
I have skis that have metal and some that don't. I like both, depending on the application. Most modern skis are solid enough in construction, that I wouldn't be too worried about pulling bindings, but if you want some added insurance, Binding Freedom inserts are really secure! I use them mostly because I have more skis than bindings, so it makes it easy to swap out.
I think Meidjo bindings replicate the 75mm feel pretty well, but here in the U.S. availability and support might favor 22 Designs. I'm shifting over to the Outlaw X, but now that the Bandit is available (I no longer tour) and cheaper, with brakes included, they seem like a good option.
"Skiessentials" is a site with thorough ski reviews, if you want to research, and the Fey Bros skis do get good reviews.
Best of luck, @telenut.
-
Inspiredcapers
- Posts: 377
- Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:11 pm
- Location: Southeast BC
- Ski style: Erratic
- Favorite Skis: Gammes currently at the top of the list
- Favorite boots: Transnordics in NNN-BC & 75mm
- Occupation: Heavy Equipment Operator
Re: Ski advice on switch from thin 75mm to NTN
Fisheater- you gave me a good chuckle this morning with… “So to my way of thinking they recommended a ski that was too wide and in a girl’s length.
It skis pretty well. It’s pretty quick edge to edge. I guess I don’t mind skiing girl’s skis.”
…I guess I just took delivery of a girls ski too (Ferreol ZigZag 92). Its has characteristics similar to your Pariah 97. Decided I need to spend some time on groomers to work on the turn. Going Bandit with this, thinking it’s going to be fun.
It skis pretty well. It’s pretty quick edge to edge. I guess I don’t mind skiing girl’s skis.”
…I guess I just took delivery of a girls ski too (Ferreol ZigZag 92). Its has characteristics similar to your Pariah 97. Decided I need to spend some time on groomers to work on the turn. Going Bandit with this, thinking it’s going to be fun.
-
Montana St Alum
- Posts: 1260
- Joined: Thu Oct 22, 2020 6:42 pm
- Location: Wasatch, Utah
- Ski style: Old dog, new school
- Favorite Skis: Blizzard Rustler 9/10
- Favorite boots: Tx Pro
- Occupation: Retired, unemployable
Re: Ski advice on switch from thin 75mm to NTN
Just a quick note:
Going from 75mm to the Bandits/OX, you might want to start out with the single outer spring (they come with the soft outer with an inner spring combo) on about 1. It's a different feel, for sure. Don't be surprised if you start out thinking you've forgotten how to ski. That was the experience that I and my youngest son had. it's a bit disconcerting. After a day or so, you should start feeling better about them, but there is a learning curve. Just keep on keeping on.
Going from 75mm to the Bandits/OX, you might want to start out with the single outer spring (they come with the soft outer with an inner spring combo) on about 1. It's a different feel, for sure. Don't be surprised if you start out thinking you've forgotten how to ski. That was the experience that I and my youngest son had. it's a bit disconcerting. After a day or so, you should start feeling better about them, but there is a learning curve. Just keep on keeping on.