Two different types of short radius turn

[lowangle al]

I've never skied the NNN system but I do remember the first time I skied merril ultras and they felt like I couldn't move my ankles and my impression was that they were too stiff to tour in, but I got used to them.

I don't think you can compare a boot like the t-1 to the t-2. I ski the t-2 and when they are buckled tight I have restricted ankle movement but when the top buckle is loose and they are in walk mode I have all the ankle movement I want for and aft and still have a high cuff for leverage side to side to edge wider skis.

I come from an xc backround and learned on light gear. When I started using plastic boots I only used them for about 10 % of my skiing and it took years to become as proficient with them as I was with leather. Someones experience coming from alpine skiing learning tele on heavy gear would be different and I can't speak for that.

[STG]

Both of the skiers are skilled and elegant in their skiing technique. My concern is that the skier in the second video is putting a lot of stress on his knee joints with such a deep drop of the knee. Would this technique be sustainable over a lifetime of skiing, or would he be more prone to injury and/or knee joint problems? New to this forum--love it!

[lilcliffy]

As usual I can identify and relate to most things that people are saying regarding their personal experiences.

CIMA- totally get what you are saying about the freedom of movement that comes with lighter boots, and the associated flexibility. There are definitely ski techiniques that can be done in lighter boots, that require flexibility, that cannot be done in heavier, more rigid boots.

But I also agree with Lowangle Al- there are techniques that can be done in heavier, more rigid boots, that cannot be done in lighter gear.

BUT- I am not suggesting that you cannot ski difficult terrain/snow with lighter gear- it just requires a different technique.

I am a firm believer that the skill needed to ski difficult terrain/snow on lighter/flexible gear are very difficult to develop if you come from an Alpine and/or heavy-tele background.

The fact that Lowangle Al comes from a XC/light telemark background says a lot to me about his technique, skills and habits.

First of all, IMHO, there has to be a limit to any skiers ability to steer skis using light/flexible boots. The terrain eventually gets steep enough, rough enough, and/or the snow conditions get challenging enough; that there is simply not enough above-ankle torsional strength in a light/flexible boot to steer a ski. Obviously every skier is different- each skiers boundary of steering with light/flexible boots is likely different (i.e. Telehiro and CIMA perhaps have better skills than I do! ).

I have watched a lot of videos in this thread and elsewhere showing telemark skiing in pretty ideal conditions. For example; in Telehiros videos in this thread; the terrain and snow conditions allow him to slip, slide and steer skis anywhere he wants to using his hips, thighs, knees, ankles, feet- whatever! I doubt very much that in light/flexible gear his technique is that fluid on very difficult terrain and/or snow- or at least there must surely be a limit to this on light/flexible gear even for the likes of Telehiro!

On light/flexible gear; when I reach the limits of my steering abilities- I have to stride my way through the telemark. In particular; if I am on icy hardpack, or breakable crust, on steep terrain; I have to stride forward with my leading ski and aggressively commit my ski into an angled diagonal stride- and carve. In these conditions, on light/flexible gear I have to actually avoid steering my skis- otherwise I will lose my balance- because the skis will simply not respond to my attempt to steer them- the boots and usually the skis are not rigid enough.

As another example- Steve Barnetts descriptions of telemark technique on light/flexible gear (Cross Country-Downhill, 1978) focus on traditional striding technique, especially in difficult terrain/snow.

As Lowangle Al points out- rigid, above-ankle support allows him to freely telemark on very difficult terrain/snow.

I too come from a XC background. BUT- I learned to telemark on heavy/rigid boots, following building the foundation of my downhill skills on Alpine equipment. I found it very challenging to develop my telemark skills on light/flexible gear after coming from heavy/rigid gear. I had techniques and habits that would simply not work on light/flexible gear- unless I was in ideal terrain/snow conditions.

I xcountry and telemark ski exclusively in the backcountry- and my experience over more than 30 years- is that the snow/terrain conditions are often less than ideal.

All of that being said, in a fundamental sense, I do agree with you Lowangle Al. I can use the same fundamental technique on both light/flexible gear as heavy/rigid gear. BUT- my fundamental technique is now based on what I have developed on light/flexible gear- just as yours did.

And back to where I began- CIMA- is correct IMO- the quick, flexible, responsive, subtle technique he is describing can only be done on light/flexible gear. I just think that everyone must have a limit to how far they can take those techniques.

In conclusion, based on my own limited experience- I believe that there are distinct advantages to learning to both xcountry and telemark ski on light/flexible gear. Learning develops habits- that can be hard to break. The habits you develop on light/flexible gear are more easily transferred to heavy/rigid gear than the other way around- at least in my experience.

[lowangle al]

As I mentioned above it took quite a while to get the same quick responsive subtle feel with plastic boots as I had with leather but it came and I think even got faster and more responsive. The bigger and stiffer your boots are the harder it is to get centered and feel your edges, but once you have it mastered you can do everything as well as you can with lighter boots. IME

My criteria for determining when a boot is too heavy and stiff for me is when I can't dance or drive the car with them on.

[CIMA]

I have watched a lot of videos in this thread and elsewhere showing telemark skiing in pretty ideal conditions. For example; in Telehiros videos in this thread; the terrain and snow conditions allow him to slip, slide and steer skis anywhere he wants to using his hips, thighs, knees, ankles, feet- whatever! I doubt very much that in light/flexible gear his technique is that fluid on very difficult terrain and/or snow- or at least there must surely be a limit to this on light/flexible gear even for the likes of Telehiro!

Though the following is not the hardest one, you can tell how he manage such a condition, which many pinnners find difficult, on 3-pin and leather boots.

[video][/video]

My criteria for determining when a boot is too heavy and stiff for me is when I can't dance or drive the car with them on.

Ha, ha!
That's a nice criteria.

In pioneer days of telemark, when hippies in Colorado started skiing on XC gear in BC areas, telemark must have been very difficult for many of them. In spite of material disadvantage, they tried to find ways to descend hills well. I like their spirit.

[CIMA]

Both of the skiers are skilled and elegant in their skiing technique. My concern is that the skier in the second video is putting a lot of stress on his knee joints with such a deep drop of the knee. Would this technique be sustainable over a lifetime of skiing, or would he be more prone to injury and/or knee joint problems?

Welcome STG!
Yes, I know a couple of friends who had skied on telemark once but returned to alpine because of their knee problem.
I suspect that there are relations between their knee problems and their deep-drop stances along with heavy gear.

[STG]

Telehiro seems to have a more subtle, less exaggerated knee drop? I think his style of skiing may be easier on the joints and body in the long-term? If you are an "older" skier or have had an injury, how to minimize the impact of skiing on your body is always on your mind.

[connyro]

My criteria for determining when a boot is too heavy and stiff for me is when I can't dance or drive the car with them on.

LOL. Manual or automatic? I tried driving my manual truck with leather ski boots and the results were not good due to the duckbills. I don't think I would even attempt to try driving with my plastic boots on: They hardly fit under the steering column! The only ski boots that work OK with the clutch pedal is NNN-BC...but I still can't dance in them... or any footwear really.

[lowangle al]

My wifes old subi was a standard but now we both have automatics. There are 5 different trail heads less than 3 miles from my house with no traffic lights or major traffic so it's not that big of a deal. The thing you need to get used to is the increased braking power you have with big boots, also if I forget to put them in walk mode I can't go over 40 mph.

The conditions in CIMAs last video would be fine on skinny skis as long as you are carving, if you are skidding not so much.

[CIMA]

This one would be one of the most difficult cases: NNN/BC on consolidated spoon-cut snow in a high mountain in summer.

[video][/video]