NNN-BC Red Flexors

[tkarhu]

Good skiing technique, (and good technique only) keeps your BOF against the ski. Nothing else.
Flexors, cables, springs and all that stuff are superfluous.

@Johnny Do XCD knights no longer accept flexors to the list of accepted kit? Maybe you could see flexors as part of a balance between forces… Think of yin and yang. Good technique, skis and fitting boots are the yin, and the softness of yin is also what I aim at, when skiing. On the other hand, bindings, flexors and cables are the yang. The way I see it, the balance of a skiing "universe" (experience) will explode, if you have zero opposing forces to the yin. So, you just have to accept some yang into the equation IMO. Stiffening elements of a boot are actually extra yang, too, because they create unnecessary "hard" forces.

rubber flexors are so much weaker than skier forces, that they are inconsequential for BOF on ski.

Skier forces somewhat easily bend both stiff boot soles and red flexors. Question is, which one of the two gives in and how much? If a flexor is much softer than a boot sole, only it tends to give in. When only the flexor gives in, the boot pivots. I do not feel much resistance there with black flexors, do you? When a flexor and a boot give in with more similar forces, it is easier to bend the boot sole, too.

@fisheater wrote following in the cable mechanics thread yesterday. What I claim is similar to his #1. I have also tested that this works with nnn-bc flexors, at least in my case (and, at least on a carpet).

John, a cable can aid performance in 3 ways.

1) The cable assists in breaking the bellows. This assists the skier in getting the ball of the foot flat on the ski.
[…]
3) An active spring transfers the energy expended lifting the heel to the front of the ski.

I do not believe you are going to see a lot of benefit #3 from a leather boot. I believe the boot will fold before you see significant benefit.

Maybe I need the stiffer flexors only due to my personal limitations. First, I have so stiff balls of feet, that a physiotherapist told I should stretch them regularly. So stretching balls of feet became part of my ankle fracture rehabilitation program back then. On the other hand, my XCD telemark practice is limited to ~15 sessions so I just may need some training wheels still.

But, what I am trying to achieve with the flexors, is to expand my XCD time frames from powder to less optimal conditions, ie. hard surfaces. If I go to the fjells in the spring time, my Gammes will fly there. On the other hand, fjell top slopes will be at least packed by wind, if not frozen. It would be nice to ski some mellow fjells up and down there, too, but turning on hard snow is a challenge for me. Also in Southern Finland, we have lots of refrozen snow. For example, now and more during spring months.

It would be nice to try softer boots, too, but I think they would work for me in softer snow. Maybe there needs to be a balance between snow hardness and gear stiffness, too?

[fisheater]

@tkarhu I have a lot of thoughts. First if the red flexor helps you to get the ball of your foot set properly on the ski by all means you should use it. You will ski better, which is more fun.
I also would like to commend you for learning to Telemark turn on a Gamme in powder. Skiing a stiff ski like a Gamme in powder really requires a bit of finesse. When you get to the Fjells it will be different, harder snow requires more edging. Edging isn’t always carving. When you carve, you are bending the ski into a bow and riding it. That isn’t very easy on a stiff Gamme. However being able to rotate flat skis, and some finesse skidding are helpful tools. Hard snow also allows for step turns and wedge turns, and the wedge telemark Christie.
Fortunately we are not graded on our skiing, it’s our time in nature to refresh the child that lives in our hearts.

[snow-mark]

A standard flexor does not keep up with a stiff boot (Alfa Guard, Alaska BC, Crispi Svartisen)

You are right. Good skiing technique, (and good technique only) keeps your BOF against the ski. Nothing else.
Flexors, cables, springs and all that stuff are superfluous.

Probably true. I have not attempted tele turns on firm or crud snow with NNNBC. But tele turns in nice powder conditions has not been a problem with the black flexors. And I just snow plow or stem turn on firm snow, also not a problem with the black flexors. For me, if there’s breakable crust/slab and if I’m on NNNBC, it’s gonna be a struggle.

[Johnny]

Johnny Do XCD knights no longer accept flexors to the list of accepted kit? Maybe you could see flexors as part of a balance between forces… Think of yin and yang. Good technique, skis and fitting boots are the yin, and the softness of yin is also what I aim at, when skiing. On the other hand, bindings, flexors and cables are the yang. The way I see it, the balance of a skiing "universe" (experience) will explode, if you have zero opposing forces to the yin. So, you just have to accept some yang into the equation IMO. Stiffening elements of a boot are actually extra yang, too, because they create unnecessary "hard" forces.

Absolutely! You are absolutely right!

The play of Yin and Yang is most useful, both in skiing and in the real world. They keep things up, they keep the balance of everything right. The thing is, you have to lift yourself up a little bit. You have to find out what is behind the play of the Yin and the Yang. Find out what is driving them. Discover what is the source that makes them push or pull. And why it does so. That is the only purpose of this world, the only purpose of life itself.

One you find and master the force that is behind it, you instantly gain control of everything all at once. Everything else besides the source itself becomes futile and pointless. Cables, flexors, clothes, ego, career, money, family etc... It all becomes useless. Some call it omniscience, others call it realization... It has many different names, but very few true devotees...

[mca80]

Cables, flexors, clothes, ego, career, money, family etc... It all becomes useless. Some call it omniscience, others call it realization... It has many different names, but very few true devotees...

Gonna take more work. Work that brings smiles though. Maybe someday.

[tkarhu]

With Alfa Guards, the red flexors actually give a natural foot movement. They work with the boots, not against them.

When lifting a heel to a classic stride, movement proceeds from weighting a ball of foot to rolling over toe tips. The movement is similar with the red flexors + Guards and my SNS Pilot + soft Salomon XC boots. It is a natural movement of walking.

With black flexors, there is a moment that feels like toe tips are balancing on a hinge. It does not feel natural. Moreover, I feel my ankle is being pulled out from the boot, which puts pressure on my heel blister spot.

The Alfa Guards have caused me blisters when skiing, but not when walking or ice skating. Range of movement is smaller with the red flexors, so top speeds probably drop on flats. However, the natural walking movement probably helps to avoid blisters.

Yet the black flexors do have their place. For example, when climbing especially in soft snow, I guess the larger ROM of black flexors saves energy. And, with a softer boot a softer flexor is better.

[tkarhu]

Range of movement is smaller with the red flexors, so top speeds probably drop on flats. However, the natural walking movement probably helps to avoid blisters.

This seemed to actually work! I skied two hours today, and got no heel blisters, which I used to get in less time.

Feel was also also nice. I did not notice any increased resistance, or limited ranges of movement. Speed was also somewhat typical for the mix of skier made and groomed tracks with fresh snow (9 km/h).

[Capercaillie]

With Alfa Guards, the red flexors actually give a natural foot movement. They work with the boots, not against them.

That is some great advice! I am 40km into breaking in Alfa Guards and it is going very slowly, 5km at a time - one particular spot starts to blisters after 5km. Going to visit a cobbler next week to have that spot ball-and-ring stretched; I do not know how well that will work given the thick plastic heel cup glued outside. Another issue is the toe flex crease - too far back for my toes. Front to back, the boot feels like it wants a stiffer flexor.

Does anyone know a store in Canada or Europe that sells the red flexors?

[Stephen]

@Capercaillie, I found that the Guards broke in (especially heels) after about 150 mile or so.
Because of the plastic heel piece, I would be reluctant to mess with the heels. My concern would be damaging the material bonds in that area. But, it might work — who knows.
This tape works great to prevent blisters. There is another one people recommend called Leukotape.

If you already have a blister, these work really well to protect it, so it can heal — if you want to keep skiing in the Guards while the blister is still healing.

The toe crease can probably be fixed.
Something along this line. Will take experimentation to dial in for your boots.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3495&p=35707&hilit=Toe+pinch#p35707

[Jurassien]

Does anyone know a store in Canada or Europe that sells the red flexors?

You could try Outdoor XL (The Netherlands). I've never dealt with them, but they have the item listed (Rottefella Flexor 60SH Red) at 2.99 Euro, in stock, and they will ship to Canada. That price is probably per piece and not as a pair:

https://www.outdoorxl.eu/rottefella-flexor-60sh.html