narrow double-cambered off-trail xcountry ski

[MikeK]

Tman - if you're interested I might make you a screamin' deal on my Glitts end of the season. I'm thinking of going lilcliffy's route and getting a wax base with NNN-BC bindings.

I haven't decided yet but they'd come with Voile HDs mounted on chord. The bases aren't great, but they still climb and slide well enough. If Johnny wants them (so he has a proper 200cm pair) then I'll let you guys duke it out.

If you know anyone that might have any interest in some E99's in 190cm I'm planning on upgrading those as well. Same bindings on chord for those.

[Teleman]

Hey guys, I have waxable e109's and they are nowhere near double camber....Can't say for the Glitter's, but most reports I read say they are single camber?????? Only problem with the 109's is they are to short at @ 178....In steep and deep they need more length for wicked slicing...far as cruising the forest up and down the closest to cc and being able to ski about anything the 99's are really good....S Bounds work well also but are more focused on the DH...Good luck! TM

[Teleman]

Oh and Mike I'd like to try the Glit's but am pretty good as far as forest cruisers...TM

[MikeK]

Tman - I'm not sure what vintage of E109 you are referring to? They may at one time have been single cambered, but they are now true doubles. This review gives some insight to that:

http://www.bwca.com/index.cfm?fuseactio ... 6&confID=1

I believe lilcliffy also mentioned this on another post. I think all of the backcountry skis from Fischer are now double camber, and the S bounds single. Not 100% sure on that though.

[Teleman]

S Bounds are double camber but not as much camber as the e99's...True my skis are a bit dated!!!!!! But the 109's I have are nowhere near a double camber....Think they will be rockets on spring corn...should turn wicked...TM

[Teleman]

Mike just glanced at the review....thinking it would be better going to Fischer skis and get the data from them....Again most of my skis are older and from ski swaps...If the 109's had been in the 190 range I think they would have been about as good as they come except for the lack of camber....TM

[MikeK]

I can assure you without going to Fischer that the S bounds I have are single cambered.

Let me find out if lilcliffy tested the new E109 - he knows the difference.

PS I'm not trying to prove you wrong or anything... it's just I won't buy a pair if they are single cambered - no sense, I have the S bound 98.

[lilcliffy]

MikeK- thanks for the link to that review- very good.

I have only tried the E109 once for a couple of hours- and it felt like a wide, classic, double-cambered backcountry-xcountry ski. I did not ski enough on it to assess the stiffness of the tips/tails (I was skiing on relatively dense even snow- not ideal testing grounds). But I did put them together to check the camber; and I could feel the lift when in the glide and the kick phase (I tried 200cm). I have spoken with a Fischer Rep that confirms what the website says about the E-series: http://www.fischersports.com/en/Nordic/ ... ackcountry "Backcountry skis are more suitable for ski trekking than downhill slopes and turning" (click on the "performance info" drop-down).

The S-Bounds- which I have rigorously tested (S-78, S-88, S-98, S-112: all borrowed from a friend!) are soft, single-cambered hybrid tele-xcountry skis; with balance of performance a bit more towards downhill (as opposed to the Madshus/Karhu XCDs with the balance of performance a bit more towards kick and glide). Again the Fischer Rep confirms what the website says about the S-Bounds: http://www.fischersports.com/en/Nordic/ ... is/S-Bound "Unlike Back Country skis, these skis are excellent for turns (especially using the Telemark style!) and for skiing deep snow slopes" (click on the "performance info" drop-down).

So- if you want more xcountry kick-glide snap than an S-Bound, or a Madshus/Karhu XCD; then the Fischer E-series, and the Madshus Voss/Glittertind offer double-camber. (The Rossi BC line is all over the map)

The extra width of the E109 over the E99, is to offer better flotation in some moderate powder. I did not test the E99 and the E109 back-to back (which would also be a useful comparison)- however my impression is that the E109 may be a "little" less cambered than the E99- this makes sense to me. The fundamental problem with double-camber and powder snow is that the deeper the pow gets- the more you are simply driving the tips/tails deeper into the snow (rather than compressing the camber). In order to properly engage the wax/traction pocket of a double-cambered ski- you have to be able to fully compress it against the snow. If the snow is too deep/soft- the wax/traction pocket of a double-cambered ski will not properly engage with the snow. If the E109 is at all slightly less cambered than the E99 (not positive it is)- the E109 would get better traction in deeper snow than the E99 (the extra width underfoot also helps).

(As a more extreme example- in very deep powder- my 195cm Annums have the best xcountry traction of any ski I have tested- despite being very soft and single-cambered (though I find the Fischer S-112s climb, and turn, more efficiently than the Annums). The soft, flex, and single camber of the Annum allows the traction pocket to engage with the snow- the width underfoot also helps!)

As far as the camber and flex of the E109 (82-60-70mm)- a great comparison is to the Eon/XCD GT (83-62-70mm).

The E109 is much more cambered, rigid and stiff than the Eon (the Eon is just as laterally stiff). The Eon is designed to be 1.5-cambered in order to offer a bit better classic xcountry performance than its fatter big brothers (Epoch, Annum). However- the Eon is still a hybrid tele-xcountry ski designed to offer both xcountry and downhill performance. The softer camber and flex of the Eon offers better downhill performance. And as an XCD ski, in light to moderate snow depth- the Eon is excellent. However, despite really liking this ski as an XCD ski- I find it doesn't have enough snap (camber) for optimum xcountry skiing performance. With the Eon- you are dragging the wax/traction pocket through the glide.

Unfortunately the snow conditions were not ideal for my testing of the E109- there wasn't any powder- the snow was quite dense. As a result- I did experience the full double camber of the E109- but I felt that it was quite squirrely on dense snow (even more than the Eon). I believe that this is at least partly due to the parabolic sidecut in the E109. This would perhaps be less of an issue in some pow over a base. But without the pow- the E109 didn't track as straight as I would like in a double-cambered xcountry ski.

I know I have said this before (I have the unfortunate tendency to repeat myself- as my wife and children remind me)- but I do not understand the profile of the E109. What's the point in having parabolic sidecut in a ski that's designed for backcountry-xcountry kick and glide touring?

In the end- I too want a set of E109s- eventually to replace my Eons (in a xcountry context). I still think the Eon is an excellent XCD ski. (When I am touring in the mtns I usually take my Guides (w3PC)- I am always anxious that the touring will be on dense snow and/or hardpack- and will regret not taking my Eons instead. I do not have the Epoch/10th mtn in a 3PC setup- perhaps that is the answer for XCD mountain touring- the "jack of all trades" ski ) (Yes I know I am nuts and performance-obsessed! )

I also think that the softness of the Eon makes it very popular with less performance-oriented offtrail tourers (for example- my wife likes the Eon just fine as an offtrail xcountry ski- not looking for extra "snap"). The less than double-camber of the Eon requires very little skill to just casually cruise through the kick and glide. The double-cambered ski requires more skill and momentum to effectively use.

[Johnny]

I'm a buyer of everything single-camber... Before springtime if possible...
(Can trade for my Super Comps or my XCD-GT... ; )

Sorry for hijacking this great thread... But Cliffy, what's the flatest, least cambered XC ski you ever tried?

[MikeK]

I'm a buyer of everything single-camber... Before springtime if possible...
(Can trade for my Super Comps or my XCD-GT... ; )

Are you referring to the Glits and the E99s? I need to talk it over with the wife but I'd give you the E99s for your wife if you want, that is if she promises to ski them

My wife wants a pair of Glits