No knee drop for Noob

[TallGrass]

I've had these Karhu Kodiak Edge 205 (metal edge only in middle, mentioned in "Dave's Nordic Backcountry Ski" list) at three resorts now and downhill on their packed greens and blues (no moguls) and can ski them alpine, but just can't get the split to drop a knee (or drive the other knee... tomato tomahtoe), thogh I'm decent at paralleling with them. I can while walking/striding, but not once moving where it feels like neither control no balance in my lace up Merril leather three pins.

Ski and boot photos these two posts.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5342&start=10#p54112

Finding idyllic light snow on a gentle slope is... ellusive, and unless you're gifting me mondo 28.5 plastic boots, I "run what I brung."

I'll see if I can upload a short vid of my second resort day with them (first was a single run after snowshoeing up 1,600' on an uphill pass), and I've gotten "used" to them. The WorkStinx are too wide to edge with leather boots.

If you don't have any tips other than to get/buy something else, I'll just keep plodding along.

[Montana St Alum]

I've had these Karhu Kodiak Edge 205 (metal edge only in middle, mentioned in "Dave's Nordic Backcountry Ski" list) at three resorts now and downhill on their packed greens and blues (no moguls) and can ski them alpine, but just can't get the split to drop a knee....

I can while walking/striding, but not once moving where it feels like neither control no balance in my lace up Merril leather three pins.

Maybe start across the hill, and while moving, just traverse a short distance with the downhill foot forward.
If you can't transition from parallel to downhill foot forward, start in that position.

[Bavarian Cream]

Hi, Tall Grass. I didn't see your previous post to me (asking where in central CO I am) in time to answer, so I'll reply to this. I'm around Fairplay Monday-Thursday, with M and W being the days that I can generally get out to ski after work (say, 5pm ish). You're generally in Summit County, no? If you ever want to meet up to practice, I've sometimes gone uphilling after hours at Breck (until a bothersome coyote wouldn't leave me alone), or even done a few turns at a time on the sled hill there. I'm only available in the evenings and on those specific days and assuming roads are clear enough over Hoosier Pass.

I'm not highly skilled by any means, but we can at least practice and critique each other's form using what little secondhand knowledge we may have. On groomers, I'm working on staying compact and keeping my rear foot from getting away from me, as well as angulation and poling. It tends to be too much for me to keep straight all at once because I don't seem to have the greatest instinctive feel for it (didn't grow up skiing).

[fisheater]

Tall Grass, I went back to your post to look at those Karhu. I doubt those skis will ever be good for dropping a knee. They look like fine backcountry trail skis. Great for hiking trails that one may also mountain bike on. However, if I extrapolate from the photo they look pretty difficult to bend into a turn. Because they are going to be difficult to bend with half your weight. Which is how you weight your skis in a two footed Tele turn.
Guys did ski skinny skis and turn with leather boots. I don’t know how soft all those skis were, but I do have an old set of Europa 99. I’ve been told they were the second generation, aluminum edges, royal blue and red topsheet. I didn’t care for the ski, because they were slower than my preference for a trail ski. Those skis did turn, the ski in front easily bows to the front of the wax pocket. The tail is a bit stiffer, but the last foot bends quite easily. Obviously not a slalom ski, but much easier to turn than say a modern Gamme.
Maybe you could trade a couple pair of your 12-pack skis for a vintage soft flexing Kazama ski from that era? They were still skinny, just closer to single camber. All that talk we had about physics, but we really didn’t talk about the radius of a turn more or less equals the radius the ski bends, plus the degree of ski rotation. However it all starts with the ski bending.

[TallGrass]

@Montana St Alum @Bavarian Cream
Here's a video of getting used to these at Monarch. Again, pretty much just alpine style in relative "flimsy" boots and bindings. That guy cut us off three times by the way. If you pause it, you can see he is less than a ski pair's width from the tips of my skis, then also cuts off my friend who was filming. Third time is in there somewhere.

I might have to take the Fischer America 109 skis with BD cable lever bindings out to the resort sometime to compare. They have full edge.

[Montana St Alum]

If the problem is that you can drop a knee on other gear, but not on these, it's probably an issue of the gear.
I would just start with a simple traverse and see if you have enough stability to drop a knee under those circumstances.
It sounds like you can drop a knee on other gear, so it's just a case of getting used to these. It just might take some time.

[wabene]

Resorting to alpine turns is nothing to be ashamed of

[connyro]

Resorting to alpine turns is nothing to be ashamed of

Exactly. Tele is not a religion.

[TallGrass]

Maybe start across the hill, and while moving, just traverse a short distance with the downhill foot forward. If you can't transition from parallel to downhill foot forward, start in that position.

I may have to do the latter. I just don't feel any stability trying to "split leg", drop inside knee, drive outside knee forward, whatever you want to call it. Skis feel twitchy like a pair of drumsticks the drummer is waving between fingers on each hand mid-stick. May just have to "go for it", eat snow, get up, dust off, assume the position, eat snow, get up, ...

If the problem is that you can drop a knee on other gear, but not on these, it's probably an issue of the gear. ... It sounds like you can drop a knee on other gear,

Nope, haven't dropped a knee on anything yet. Only used three skis, the Karhus, the Fischers (America 109st), and the K2 WorkStinx which stunk with leather boots (too flimsy to edge).

I'm not highly skilled by any means, but we can at least practice and critique each other's form using what little secondhand knowledge we may have.

Fairplay is cool and Silverheels from the beaver ponds or whatnot (leave via backside of town) is a nice hike past the old bucket shovel and such with mini windbreaks along the ridge tops. Yeah, critique each other or just gather "evidence" of mis-shapen "snow angels." Uphilling Breck is fine as I can bring snowshoes in case kick/grip wax or skins are not having it. I'm also always up for a hot drink at Sinclair (I have "additives", the King Sooper kind, not the Green + kind).

They look like fine backcountry trail skis. Great for hiking trails that one may also mountain bike on. ... Guys did ski skinny skis and turn with leather boots. ... Maybe you could trade a couple pair of your 12-pack skis for a vintage soft flexing Kazama ski from that era? They were still skinny, just closer to single camber. All that talk we had about physics, but we really didn’t talk about the radius of a turn more or less equals the radius the ski bends, plus the degree of ski rotation. However it all starts with the ski bending.

When I've taken them off trail into pow, it's like each foot is in a soup bowl, so they can't be that stiff. I'd say they're a track ski, but Dave says otherwise (see below excerpt). Trade for Kazama's? I'm not waving the white flag just yet!! I know I can bend them enough on flats to make the middle edge bite, and they flex enough in soft snow that they can stop and make their own bowl to sit in.

Resorting to alpine turns is nothing to be ashamed of

Dude, watch the video above. I'll even resort to snowplow.


And remember folks,
PIZZA NOT CHIPS!!! PIZZA NOT CHIPS!!!
https://www.newsflare.com/video/386380/pizza-not-chips

SOURCE: http://web.archive.org/web/20151002150932/http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/DirtbagPinner/bc-skis.html#TRAD

TRADITIONAL TOURING
Summary:
Tip Width: Upper 50s to Low 60s
Typical profile: 60/50/55 or 65/55/60
Double camber for faster touring
Narrow profile for good tracking
Some turning if you are willing to work for it
Will work in tracks

The Ski:
These skis are traditional double-cambered cross-country skis with the addition of metal edges. I just LOVE this type of ski for one reason -- they fly on the flats. These skis are made for kick and glide and given the right combination of snow and trail conditions, you can do things on this type of ski that you can't do on any other kind of ski. Things like double-poling down an old rail bed while miles fly by with little effort.

While these skis are great for striding, they are comparatively unruly when pointed down the hill. In my opinion, every aspiring backcountry skier should find and read a copy of Steve Barnett's classic instruction book, "Cross-Country Downhill". In fact, the prototypical ski for this class took its name from this book -- the Karhu XCD-GT. In it, you will see proof that this class of ski can be skied down steep mountain terrain. But as others have noted, not everybody can ski like Steve Barnett.

As a rule I expect very little from these skis in terms of downhill control. As with any cross-country ski, step turns, snowplows and stem turns work best. I can pull off telemark and parallel turns only in the best of situations.

Some skis in this class have partial metal edges in the middle 1/3 of the ski. In general, these skis track noticeably better than full metal edged skis, especially in rough, poorly formed backcountry tracks. Edgeless tips are more flexible and lacking edges they don't bite. So as a result, the tips can kind of noodle around and find their way along in crude tracks while still running straight and stable. In contrast, stiffer skis with full edges can feel more nervous since their tips will bite into the snow more. This means they are more likely to be diverted this way and that as you ski along through rough tracks.

The Terrain:
The type of terrain this type of ski is best on is flat, where you can take advantage of the double camber and narrow profile for fast striding and were their relative lack of turning ability aren't a big negative. Logging roads, Forest Service and fire roads, former railroad beds and dedicated xc trails that follow mellow rivers and ponds are good places for this type of ski. Owing to their narrow profile, these are great skis for backcountry trips for which you must navigate through the set tracks of an established nordic touring center at the beginning or end of the trip.

However, it should be noted that these skis require good reflexes and solid technique when skied on hiking trails. To get the most out of these skis, they should be skied in their traditional and long nordic lengths. This long length means that it's easy to get ski tips hooked around trees and such. If your classic nordic length is over 200 cm (common for men), expect extra work when side stepping and doing the herring bone on narrow hiking trails. I've found that 200 cm skis and shorter generally fit sideways on hiking trails better.

The Skier:
I think the type of skiers that this type of ski is best suited for is endorphin junkies who equate fun with the number of miles covered. If we can compare other backcountry skis to mountain bikes, then these skis are more like road racing bikes. They also make sense for frugal skiers who want to own one pair of skis that can be used at both nordic touring centers and on gentle backcountry trips. And it should be noted that they are well suited for Quixotic skiers who aspire to push the envelope of what can be accomplished on light gear when skiing downhill.

The Boots and Bindings: In terms of boots, most folks will pair them with either system boots or Snowfield class boots. The gentler the expected terrain is and the greater the emphasis on kick and glide performance, the more it makes sense to match them with the lighter system boots.

In an old article in Cross-Country Skier Magazine, Stowe native Jan Reynolds argues for using this type of ski with even heavier boots for what she calls, Norpine skiing. I regularly ski mine with an Excursion class boot when I expect to be taking them on narrow hiking trails. While the heavier boots won't turn the skis into telemark skis, they give a lot more control.

Examples:

Manufacturer Model Profile Year Comments
...
Karhu Kodiak 60/52/57 1991 partial edge

[DG99]

Those gears can christy, so they should be able to tele! On hardpack like that it’s not so easy to tele without skidding out somehow and getting tangled up. It may work better on deeper softer snow. One free heel mantra is to ski alpine turns until forced into tele by deep or grabby snow where you need better fore aft stability.