Avalanche Risk

[Krummholz]

I don’t think the average person knows the meaning of incident. Maybe they should just say “Preventable Death”, like when a kid unknowingly falls in a pool and drowns. That last storm dumped a foot or more of heavy wet snow, it was like a spring storm. Not the normal Dec/Jan Champagne Powder. I know from spending a few hours shoveling out my house and the front and back at work.

On Cameron Peak the Snotel snow depth shows:

12/22. 22”
12/23. 23”
12/24 10am. 37”
12/24 4pm. 41”

So it looks like a Preventable Death due to Powder Fever

[jyw5]

jyw5 turns on the 150 watt lightbulb in the room.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/accident
ac·ci·dent

Full Definition of accident
1a : an unforeseen and unplanned event or circumstance
Their meeting was an accident.
b : lack of intention or necessity : CHANCE
They met by accident rather than by design.
2a : an unfortunate event resulting especially from carelessness or ignorance
was involved in a traffic accident

The problem with the word “accident” is that it can imply that something happened by chance and that the affected party had no agency in the outcome.
At the same time, much of the definition could apply to an avalanche incident: unplanned, lack of intention or necessity, unfortunate, careless, ignorance.
This is not to imply that all who are killed in an avalanche are ignorant or careless.

The words we use are important and shape our thinking.
I agree that it might be better to use sharper language when reporting avalanches.
Might be hard on those close to the event, but also might help prevent future incidents.

Just for context:
Surfer recently killed in shark attack on California coast. Pretty much the only way to avoid being a shark victim is to not go in the water — to not surf.
On the other hand, as skiers, we have the blessing of being able to see and understand avalanche risk IF we have the knowledge (real knowledge, not hearsay and rules of thumb).

This is not cheery stuff, and is also very low probability, based on total number of skier hours, worldwide.
But the consequences are so devastating that it seems important to confront reality and take responsible action.
It’s my hope that none of us will be one of the dozens of people making up this seasons avalanche statistics.

I'm sorry if I have offended anyone. I do strongly believe that sharper language is needed to help people avoid avalanches and mitigate risk. Skiing and riding in the backcountry has exploded as a sport and there are so many new people buying gear and obliviously venturing out into potentially dangerous terrain.

Each time something like this happens, it is tragic but can be used as a teaching moment. These reports are the most optimal time as people see these reports and they are reading them and paying the most attention vs. any other time (like an avy report or an informational article).

stay safe out there and be informed.

[Krummholz]

@jyw5 I don’t think anyone is offended. I just think we know that the message of backcountry safety is not being communicated in an effective manner. I was looking at the avalanche safety courses in my area and they are either expensive coloradomountainschool $629+ AIARE 1 COURSE or a more limited free nonprofit The Friends of Berthoud Pass On-Snow Session is a 1-day avalanche awareness field session held on for one weekend a year on Berthoud Pass “THIS SESSION IS NOT A REPLACEMENT FOR AN AIARE LEVEL 1 CLASS”. Is an AIARE course being inclusive or is it being exclusive? For a newbie dropping $1500+ on backcountry gear at REI will they spend another $629+ on avalanche training? Or watch some stuff on YouTube and think they are ready for the backcountry. I have a natural high level of caution for potentially dangerous activity, I’ve had friends from childhood who are no longer here because they had a much lower level. What was the level of the person who died near Cameron Peak a few day ago? Was it a false sense of security or reckless behavior?

[jyw5]

jyw5 I don’t think anyone is offended. I just think we know that the message of backcountry safety is not being communicated in an effective manner. I was looking at the avalanche safety courses in my area and they are either expensive coloradomountainschool $629+ AIARE 1 COURSE or a more limited free nonprofit The Friends of Berthoud Pass On-Snow Session is a 1-day avalanche awareness field session held on for one weekend a year on Berthoud Pass “THIS SESSION IS NOT A REPLACEMENT FOR AN AIARE LEVEL 1 CLASS”. Is an AIARE course being inclusive or is it being exclusive? For a newbie dropping $1500+ on backcountry gear at REI will they spend another $629+ on avalanche training? Or watch some stuff on YouTube and think they are ready for the backcountry. I have a natural high level of caution for potentially dangerous activity, I’ve had friends from childhood who are no longer here because they had a much lower level. What was the level of the person who died near Cameron Peak a few day ago? Was it a false sense of security or reckless behavior?

Sometimes its reckless, sometimes its herd mentality giving a false sense of security, and sometimes its just a plain stupid decision born out of ignorance.

I agree the courses are expensive. I was lucky to have paid only $375 about 5 yrs ago for a 3 day on site comprehensive avy course. But I have also continued my journey with an 8 day mountaineering course as well as a 7 day backcountry skiing tour since then. I'm probably overdue for a refresher or at least need to re-read some books.

Most people who drop $1500+ at REI sadly don't spend any money on education. I've seen it over and over and its just sad. There are people I've seen who have $3000+ in gear and clothes and can barely ski or are way out of their dept on the slopes. All the power to them for being able to afford expensive gear, but omg...go take a lesson, watch some videos, read a book, please.

So anyone reading this... if you are new to the sport, please educate yourself before going out on potentially dangerous terrain. A good avalanche book will summarize the basics in the first 20 pages. A basic youtube video can give you at least some knowledge within 10 minutes. I think your life is worth it.

If you are unsure, don't go. or go with someone with alot of experience. Spend at least 10-15 minutes on route and snow assessment and evaluation. Discuss it with your partner or group. These exercises will also help you evaluate the terrain, the weather, the snow characteristics, and even make you a better skiier.

Backcountry skiing on potential avy terrain is unfortunately not just ski up, ski down ... poor or no evaluation is risky and dangerous. I started skiing skinny skis and leather boots so that I wouldnt have to make tough decisions in the backcountry. But as my skills have increased this past yr, I am finding that I'm forced to be more conservative and often times just completely avoid skiing entire mountains. The reality is, if I want to go steep skiing, I will go with a guide, an experienced trustworthy group, or go to a resort.

[Stephen]

If you ski in the backcountry, and are not familiar with the term “Runout Zone,” it’s important to understand.
https://avalanche.org/avalanche-encyclo ... nout-zone/
Avalanches can extend (runout) much further than one might think.
It’s important to know the avalanche risk above you, and how far that risk area extends at the bottom of the avalanche zone.

[randoskier]

Nature always wins. This film explains what happened at a ski Area we often ski in Austria (Galtur), right up the road from Ischgl- it is very close to where those five Swedish ski-tourers and their Austrian UIAGM Mountain Guide got hit yesterday- that avalanche was 400m wide! I assume they were starting the Silvretta traverse, a classic multi day AT tour of intermediate difficulty- that begins from Ischgl normally. I would never ski that before March.

This is an amazing program by National Geographic called Alpine Tsunami about the Galtur avalanche in '99 that killed 31 people (not all skiers).

[randoskier]

Galtur on a better day

[randoskier]

Education only goes so far. If you google- UIAGM Mountain Guide dies in Avalanche- you will find many instances of them perishing in avalanches. Like yesterday- the Austrian Guide who got hit with the five Swedish clients- four clients and the Guide died. Avalanche was 400 meters wide and travelled over 350 meters.

UIAGM Mountain Guides have arguably the best avalanche training in the world. In the EU by law nobody can guide ski-touring and climbing in Alpine terrain except a UIAGM certified mountain guide, nobody can guide mountain hiking, snow-shoeing, and Nordic ski trips except certified Mountain Leaders who also have excellent avalanche training. The mountain can still get you, self-education and/or hiring a Guide can improve your chance of avoidance, but it does not eliminate the risk.

Also some people know the risk is elevated in certain conditions and on certain terrain and chose to take the risk anyway, that is a personal decision and in my opinion should be respected regardless of the outcome.

[randoskier]

I don’t think anyone is offended. I just think we know that the message of backcountry safety is not being communicated in an effective manner. I was looking at the avalanche safety courses in my area and they are either expensive coloradomountainschool $629+ AIARE 1 COURSE or a more limited free nonprofit The Friends of Berthoud Pass On-Snow Session is a 1-day avalanche awareness field session held on for one weekend a year on Berthoud Pass “THIS SESSION IS NOT A REPLACEMENT FOR AN AIARE LEVEL 1 CLASS”. Is an AIARE course being inclusive or is it being exclusive? For a newbie dropping $1500+ on backcountry gear at REI will they spend another $629+ on avalanche training? Or watch some stuff on YouTube and think they are ready for the backcountry. I have a natural high level of caution for potentially dangerous activity, I’ve had friends from childhood who are no longer here because they had a much lower level. What was the level of the person who died near Cameron Peak a few day ago? Was it a false sense of security or reckless behavior?

After reading the article below AIARE does not sound like the best course to take- maybe go to Vent, Austria and take Kilian Scheiber's 5 day ski-touring class instead- deals with everything avalanche, about the same price as the AIARE thingy and likely way more effective, plus you will skin up and ski down the highest mountain in the Tyrol- the Wildspitz on the last day, conditions (and your ability) permitting. Kilian is a UIAGM mountain guide and a son of a UIAGM Mountain Guide and a grandson of a Mountain Guide.

https://coloradosun.com/2019/01/07/silv ... ty-course/

[Stephen]

https://www.bergfuehrer-vent.at/en/wint ... se-5-days/
5 days course fee: € 635,- per person
for minimum three participants

Seems pretty reasonable.