Free-pivot Nordic touring??

[connyro]

Dusting off a really old thread because I have a related question:

I am setting up my first set of 75mm telemark skis. I'm motivated by increasing my ability to handle varied snow conditions (resort / chopped powder / ice / deep powder) over my FT62+NNN-BC+Alaskas setup. I'm sticking with leather boots (Alicos) but planning to buy a wider ski like Annum or Rossi BC120. My use case will be purely uphill skinning followed by downhill, but most of that skinning shouldn't exceed 20 deg incline or so except for short bits.

My question is (never having skied 75mm): Do I need free-pivot binding to skin up 15-20 deg (say, with a 55mm heel bar)? I hope the answer is no, I'll have enough toe flex in the standard 75mm clamp with leather boots. Would love to get input validating that I can save a few hundred $$ and just go with Voile Cable bindings vs switchbacks.

My understanding is that free pivot is only really required for really stiff soled plastic tele boots and with leather boots I won't need too much toe flex to skin/walk up a slope on a moderate heel wire/bar. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. I just want to replicate range of motion I have skinning up moderate pitches with NNN-BC, red flexors, Alaskas, with 55mm heel wire piece, which is just fine.

Skiers have been doing the type of skiing that you describe (skin up/ski down moderate slopes) forever without free pivots. I think you are right on track thinking of using stout leather boots and skins with a Annum type ski mounted with Voile 3-pin cable bindings. I'd mount them with risers and the standard Voile heel piece with the 2 climbing bars included or just get the Viole Traverse (https://www.voile.com/voile-3-pin-cable ... nding.html)

[timpete]

Great, thanks for bearing with my naivety and confirming what I thought!

[JB TELE]

Having a resistance binding like a 3 pin toe clamp or nnn-bc toe bumper is a disadvantage on longer ascents, but it's not a big deal. A heel riser combined with a flexible boot helps a lot to counter than resistance.

The free pivot really helps in deep powder. Your tips tend to rise and the tails drop, meaning your tips surf the surface of the snow. With a resistance binding you end up driving the ski straight forward and stabbing into the snow which means you have to lift all that snow up to step forward. I'm talking above well above your boot tops almost to your knees powder.

[Krummholz]

I think it’s more technique than equipment. It drives me crazy watching people on YouTube pick their skis up out of the snow like they are hiking uphill. I find it much more effective to unweight and push forward through the foot and let the ski climb (float up in powder), then step down on the ball of the foot to set the scale/skin. I ski 3 pin.

[DG99]

Yes, a flexible leather boot in 3 pins is fairly close to a free pivot anyways!

For plastic boots though it’s nice to have Switchbacks. I’ve also done a lot of miles in 3 pin hardwires with Scarpa T2s so it’s not bad, but you are fighting the flex resistance and it makes it hard to break trail in deep snow.

Plastic boots in free pivots is fine for touring AKA kick and glide. I’ve never felt the need for any resistance once I got used to it. I have heard of people wanting a three pin cable on top not a Switchback mechanism so getting an intermediate resistance mode….. but doesn’t seem terribly needed.

The main trouble with free pivot is that it can be a little awkward moving around in mixed terrain, like step turns or short bits of downhill interspersed with K&G. But it’s not terrible. Switchbacks can switch modes pretty fast anyhow.

[Manney]

I think it’s more technique than equipment. It drives me crazy watching people on YouTube pick their skis up out of the snow like they are hiking uphill. I find it much more effective to unweight and push forward through the foot and let the ski climb (float up in powder), then step down on the ball of the foot to set the scale/skin. I ski 3 pin.

Conditions thing? Lumpy mashed potatoes over packed foliage… pick up and step. Cold powder over firm base… unweight and push forward. Definitely prefer powder over base. Ha ha… Faster, smoother, easier on psoas muscle region over distances longer than 2 miles.

The main trouble with free pivot is that it can be a little awkward moving around in mixed terrain, like step turns or short bits of downhill interspersed with K&G.

Yep. Totally agree.

[DG99]

I’m actually wondering about this….

I have T4s, and two skis, Outbacks with pins and Vector BCs with Switchbacks. One is too small and light, the other overkill with the T4s on backcountry XC trails. Thinking some S-Bound 112 or similar next year. I’m leaning towards more Switchbacks, but wondering. After skiing back to back got these notes

Pins (Voile 3pc traverse). Pros. Light, no mode changes, always stable in mixed terrain. Rarely would use the cables but need the ramped riser due to plastic boot rocker.
Cons. Flex resistance causes some inefficiency, discomfort, heel blisters for climbing or K&G.
Switchbacks. Pros. No resistance for climbing or K&G in free pivot mode, efficient and comfortable. Better downhill performance in locked mode.
Cons. Heavier. Mode switching needed, but works pretty quick. Unstable in free pivot mode in mixed terrain, e.g. short descents, step turns etc.

Switchback 3.1#, SWx2 3.4#, 3PC Traverse 2.1#. Does a pound actually matter? See https://www.telemarktalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5662
Oh, and the 3PC traverse is $135 cheaper.

Thoughts?

[paulzo]

My thinking is that it depends on terrain expected, and also on pack weight. For day trips, there is more of a difference in how you go uphill , because without a load you can take a longer stride, so the free pivot is more of an advantage on the uphill. With an overnight load, you are shuffling anyway, your stride is shorter, so it's not as much of a difference. And then if the terrain is up, down, up, down, and especially if there is any tight forest, bushwhacky stuff, the free pivot is not as good for that as a basic 3-pin. If it's up,up,up and then down, down, down, switchbacks are great for that. If your boots are all 3-pin, then put in inserts and swap the bindings depending on the outing.