Update from the XCD Knights

[lowangle al]

Skiing 5 miles down a closed forest road to climb a 300' vert hill, then to ski down it, and then ski the 5 miles back out, is not going to sell merchandise. It's hard, it's slow, it's boring, it's takes presence of mind, and no one gets it.

If it is 300 ft of good fun snow I'd do 10 laps and 10 miles and be wearing T2s and vectors. There is a place for xcd light gear but it is tough to learn on in the best conditions and will humble an expert in crappy conditions. Well executed turns do feel good, and I think you will have more of them on heavier gear.

The gear was actually better 20 years ago and sold for about what you pay for modern xcd gear today. The one improvement is that you can now get them in no wax but on the downside you can't find smooth bases. From what I see with the xcd gear today is people using it as a burley xc ski for off the groomed xc trails. I don't think many people are going to get to the expert level skiing that gear alone unless they have a lot of time and motivation to do tours that are turn oriented.

[Woodserson]

If it is 300 ft of good fun snow I'd do 10 laps and 10 miles and be wearing T2s and vectors.

If you're going just for the turns... maybe... but I think you misread, I'm not going specifically for the turns, I'm going to enjoy a nice 10 miles in the woods, which for me may count more than the turns.

There is a place for xcd light gear but it is tough to learn on in the best conditions and will humble an expert in crappy conditions.

Which is exactly why I do it on light gear.

Well executed turns do feel good, and I think you will have more of them on heavier gear.

They do feel good, AND I have more than enough heavy gear laying around to feel good with, but that's not the point. I'm not disagreeing with any of your points, I'm just saying we might have different goals.

The gear was actually better 20 years ago and sold for about what you pay for modern xcd gear today.

Do you have specifics? Chances are I may have some this gear laying around. I'm not testing your word, I would be interested to see what you're comparing. I think a statement like this requires concrete examples. Also, we may not be talking about the same thing, and maybe maybe I want some!

The one improvement is that you can now get them in no wax but on the downside you can't find smooth bases.

Agreed, which is why many of us pine for the European supply. I'd say that we are not enough of a market force in the US, and that reason is BECAUSE OF THIS REASON SPECIFICALLY:

I don't think many people are going to get to the expert level skiing that gear alone unless they have a lot of time and motivation to do tours that are turn oriented.

It's a culture thing. We want to learn skills yesterday. No one grows up waxing skis on a collective level anymore. Nordic is dying in US, specifically this type of skiing especially, not because it is easy, but because it is hard. You would think everyone would be touring in the woods enjoying THE UP as well as THE DOWN and THE FLAT and waxing skis... but that's not the case. We're obsessed with the down only, not the up, we're obsessed about moving on to the next great thing. EX: Biathlon should be a national sport, for crying out loud! Skiing around the woods and shooting at shit, who doesn't want to do that?

[MikeK]

Thanks for the post Gunnar. We look forward to your future info.

Al... I dunno man. I think today's XCD skis are pretty easy. I gotta tell you it took me about 5 minutes to figure out how to do a non-linked tele turn with my S Bounds and my Alaskas in powder. Took me about another 2 or 3 tries to link some turns together.

I haven't touched those skis this year. Only thing I've been on is NNN-BC, Alaskas and Eons/S78s. It's definitely a little harder to turn those skis but I make snakes everytime I have them out. I screw up. I don't care. No one is watching me. I don't get hurt. That's all that matters. I know I could do it easier with my S98s, 3 pins and Svartisens. For me that stuff is a little easier to swing back and forth, and those skis just want to turn a tighter radius, and are more willing to turn.

I've skied the old style stuff. I don't see how it's easier to turn. It's way harder IMO. A 215cm double camber ski with no sidecut... uh uh... leather boots that skin my heels... no thanks. Sure, guys were jumping those things down everything in the 70s because you didn't know any better. Now all those guys are skiing carbon fiber Black Diamond skis with Meidjo bindings and laughing about that gear. No shit. It was insane.

Really expert XCD skiers are going to rip whatever. Most people can realistically get to making linked turns IMO - I don't think it's that hard, and if you screw up, the consequences are usually pretty minor. Beginners will probably stick to using them for fat XC skis. They are fat XC skis. They are really for XC skiing and making turns to avoid obstacles or control speed.

You can try as you might, but if you XC ski enough, you are going to have to descend a hill. If you are into learning XCD techniques, it can be kinda fun... even without T2s and Vectors.

[Woodserson]

To be clear lowangle Al, I'd tour with you any day. I'm just passing The Dark Raining Time away... and discussing the minutiae that really no one cares about.

[lowangle al]

As far as the quality I have no proof but I just bought a used pair of fischer GTSs, for the riva bindings on them, and compared them to my newer (5 yr old?) karhu xcds. Even though they were shorter they were heavier and much more tortionaly rigid than the karhus. I also have two pairs of the karhu xcd's from the eighties that I have compared to the newer ones and there is a difference. Mostly though it is a gut feeling that todays skis are maybe more focused on weight and price point.

Wooderson, What makes you think I don't enjoy the ski in and out as much as the next guy. A ten mile ski with 3000ft of vertical is a good day and I'm sure I'd be more tired than you, but I would feel more fulfilled than if I had only done one lap. If I were on my xcd skis one run may have been enough.


You say you have heavy gear and if that is what you learned on and now you want a new challenge I can understand that.

I agree that it is a culture thing and I am 100% a Nordic skier, I have worn my light skis half of the times I've been out this year. I learned on light gear and when I switched to plastic boots I stuck with that until my skill level was where it was on the light gear. Now I wear whatever I think will be the most fun. I gotta go the wife just got home

[Woodserson]

Mostly though it is a gut feeling that todays skis are maybe more focused on weight and price point.

Wooderson, What makes you think I don't enjoy the ski in and out as much as the next guy.

I agree on the first point. The E99s are a prime example. It's one of the reasons I enjoy my wood skis-- they are heavier, but they provide a smoother and quieter ride, which I argue reduces fatigue as much as lightness.

I wasn't implying you don't enjoy the ski in/out, I was referencing myself only, at the particular moment in time and in my life. Trust me, T4's or 3's may pop up one day in my quiver.

[lowangle al]

Ditto on the T2s. EEEE shoes are tight on me and I have a nueroma on the ball of my foot and a high instep. Anyway the t2s were the only shoe, boot, sneaker or whatever that I was able to wear in the size appropriate for the length of my feet and they are comfortable.

My wifes foot is the opposite of mine and she loves hers too.

Mike don't get the excursions Go all in.

[Cannatonic]

A big reason why different gear makes sense is your physical situation. Once some arthritis and/or permanent injuries kick in, you may find yourself embracing light gear. In my case the mind is willing, the cardio system is there, but the bones are not there anymore. Travelling miles of flats in heavy gear is completely out of the question!

Fortunately I remember when my tele buddies in the 90's were dropping cliffs and doing alpine couloirs with Alico Doubles and flimsy cable bindings. Rossi Haute Routes, Kazamas, etc. This way of skiing is still available! Sure, you can rage harder coming down with big heavy boots. But to me the ability to travel and ski with the equivalent of hiking boots and XC skis is a real thrill! Back in my day "telemark" was synonymous with "touring". Same exact meaning. "Telemarking" meant traveling and exploring in addition to cranking turns.

No hablo "XCD". Give Hans Douschbäg my regards!

[MikeK]

No hablo "XCD". Give Hans Douschbäg my regards!

I take it you don't take the Knights seriously?

We've confirmed they are legit through email messages and Johnny has been talking with these guys for years. He had also been talking with the designers at Altai skis for a while too and they finally decided to post something.

These guys are like Jedi or something... I don't even know... I like their style though

[lowangle al]

Ctonic if my tour will be on trails I'll take the light gear and enjoy my turns, but if I plan to do some meadow skipping off trail I take the heavy stuff because being a walking eggshell I can't afford to crash.