Help diagnosing Telemark errors, please!

[JohnSKepler]

Working hard to get better! My goal this winter is linked turns where I want them, without fighting the skis, on moderate slopes with a few inches of powder. This might be ambitious or even impossible but I'll save jumps, jump turns, drops, blacks, etc., for next year!


Today I had the fortune to be at a ski area prior to the lifts opening. I decided to try some laps on the learning slope (not the bunny slope!) with my Alfa Free/Falkentind 62. The slope is about 1/2 mile long, 50 yards wide with variable cross slope pitch, moderate slope angle, some nice sweeping turns, fresh corduroy down the middle, variable depth powder on the sides. It's a little on the steep side for a learning slope compared to others I've seen. Because of the slope I put on 58mm Xskins trimmed to the heel. (Made a huge difference! Thanks @lilcliffy . Because I was lapping I left the skins on for descent. I know this slows me down and I think it might be affecting the turns.

On the one hand, I'm making progress. When I got to the bottom after my first run, during which I felt I was fighting the skis the whole time, I looked back up and, lo and behold, the line looked quite nice! Linked esses all the way down. I was able to manage three laps before the lifts opened, 3 miles of linear, about 1,000 feet of elevation. I went in and out of the powder, some of which swallowed my skis, between some trees, and generally did okay. This was the first time I've ever been on a slope like that and I didn't fall. But there are some issues that are plaguing me.

First question: I feel like I'm fighting the skis the entire time. They have a mind of their own. I just don't have a good feel for how tight my legs should be during a descent. In order to keep the skis aligned like I want takes a lot of energy flexing my legs, calves, and feet, to maintain angle and alignment. I feel like the skis ought to be more stable than that, though, honestly, they never were when I skied Alpine, either. My primary misgiving is that everyone else seems to be so smooth and at ease. Are they fighting too? I didn't grow up doing this with a dad or mom coaching me through these basics.

Second question: When tuning I'm working had to press the ball of my foot down while simultaneously weighting both feet equally, while simultaneously angling the skis onto their edges and keeping everything straight. And... I'm turning. I can definitely turn, but... as above, seems like it should be coming easier. Does this sound like the right sequence of events? Turning isn't really a problem, maintaining control and direction through the turn is the problem. I don't even know when I'm on my edges. Is that when the radius of the esses looks the same?

Third question: When turning right, in telemark stance, working to weight equally, pressing ball of trailing foot down, my darn right ski (trailing ski) wants to rotate counter clockwise. The tip keeps wandering in towards the other ski and I have to spread my legs and it just turns into a damn pizza! I feel like I'm 6! But most 6 year olds are better skiers than me. This doesn't seem to happen when turning left.

Fourth question: When turning left I keep turning (waaaaay) past the fall line until the rear of the skis start to give way and the whole operation turns into a parallel stop. I think I'm just a big chicken and am skiing across the face of the slope instead of DOWN it. But when fighting to control direction, surrounded by trees, the logical part of my brain keeps telling me to control speed. Is this just something that I'll get used to as I do this more? I remember learning to ride motorcycles in dirt and feeling leery of sliding the back tire or reflexively slowing down when the trail above turned to jagged rocks. Over time I learned to control that slide and use it to my benefit, and trust the suspension over the rocky spots. Both have made me better and faster but my first instinct (which I have learned to shut down) is to hit the brakes.

Today wasn't a disaster even if I'm making it sound like it. Most of it went well! Three miles and just shy of 1,000 feel of elevation in an hour is, I feel, not bad. Love skiing the powder. Always on the lookout for stashes and chutes of powder. So much smoother and more controllable. And I never fell. But I need to get more stable and quicker in transition, of course, coming out of turn fighting to get everything lined up makes the transition slow to develop. Maybe I need to be falling more?

Thanks so much to you guys for helping me get going, find equipment, provide information so that I can analyze, give encouragement so I don't give up, and stories for something to shoot for. I owe many, many beers or Scotch, whatever is your poison. If you're in Northern Utah, you know who you are, send me a PM. Drinks are on me.

[Stephen]

Hi @JohnSKepler.
With so many good skiers here, you're bound to get a lot of suggestions.
I'm not going to try and give answers, but just say that there is a learning curve (stating the obvious, of course).
This just takes time and practice, no matter if you had the entire wisdom of Telemark skiing stored in your brain, ready for instant retrieval, as needed.
Lots of fine motor control to match up with what works on the technical side.
Using muscles in ways your not used to, learning to read the snow, the angles, having the confidence that the skis will do what you want them to do, or that you can recover, if they don't.

On a practical note, maybe next time, try with and without the skins and see if that makes any difference.
I'm thinking that, especially on a machined or packed slope, that the skins being higher than the base would make the skis pivot more easily and maybe make them less controllable. Just a thought.
Also, the drag is going to throw things off a little.
If you need it to slow down, that's one thing, but otherwise, it might be causing problems.
Maybe like a dragging front brake on the motorcycle would change the riding dynamics?

Edit:
One last thing...
I love watching really good skiers ski Telemark. One thing that immediately jumps out is how relaxed and at ease they look! I try to keep that look in mind as I ski. It looks so much more fun that being tense and struggling!

[fisheater]

John, the Telemark turn has the additional element of the dropped knee Telemark position. Now I’m a competent Telemark skier, but most of my local trail skiing I only get a dozen or two dozen Telemark turns on my 9 mile loop. However I have learned how much quicker the “turn” comes back now that I drop the knee very frequently. So from my own experience I can say that dropping into the Telemark position without turning, will offer big improvement in your turning. Now I once was a very good alpine skier. A constant mantra of mine was shin to the boots, which also means you are flexing your knees and ankles. To this day, even in Alaska boots, when I even feel I’m not on it, shins to the boots makes a big difference. You can ski with caution, however you cannot ski timidly. Stand straight, get you butt in the back seat, and get ready to fall on your butt!
So first and foremost is proper stance, knees bent, ankles flexed, shins to the front of the boots, hands on the bicycle handlebars. It all starts with posture.
I never taught Telemark skiing or even had a lesson. What I do know is that if your weight is over an edge, the edge doesn’t usually wander. Manky snow would be an exception. My suggestion is to break down the movements. Make Telemark turns by weighting the lead (front, outside) ski. When teaching alpine skiing we would just have people make one turn, across the fall line until they stopped. Then lead with the other foot the other way. Once you are good at weighting the front ski, while you are turning across the fall line, try weighting your back foot. Just try to feel that back foot edging a little. As you get that back foot feel, I would then encourage you to try to make a back foot hockey stop.
I think that’s enough for a start. I can’t emphasize enough proper posture. Good luck, and have fun

[fisheater]

Oh, take the skins off!

[connyro]

Oh, take the skins off!

Fish is right. Skiing downhill with skins on is usually awkward and clumsy, even for good skiers. If you are trying to figure out the balance subtleties of the tele turn, you cant have the "brakes" on while learning.

[spopepro]

Lots of good advice so far. The one thing I’d add is you might need to make more of a “C” with your body at the ends of turn. Really exaggerate the hips uphill and the shoulders downhill. This gets you solidly on the uphill edge, but keeps you stable and downhill. If your shoulders are uphill you’ll keep turning and get squirrely once you stop moving downhill. If your hips aren’t high enough and you’re not solidly on edge then your skis will naturally start sliding and turning towards the fall line and you’ll instinctively fight it.

[bauerb]

yikes, you wrote all of that about your experience trying to make tele turns with skins on? take the skins off, try again, and report back. its not worth trying to diagnose your tele skiing with skins on...its wildly unpredictable to ski that way

[lowangle al]

Hi John, like the others have said, take the skins off, they are one reason it feels like you are fighting it. The other thing is that if the hill was steep enough to need skins I think it was too steep for you. If the bunny hill is lower angle, that is where I would start. Things will be easier to figure out if you don't have to worry about controlling your speed.

Slowing down on a lower angle slope will also help with the other problems you are having. The first thing you have to figure out is how to get centered and stay centered throughout the turn and transition. Once you have that pretty well down you can start working on edging and pressuring your skis.

It's a long process, but gains come early and it's fun from the start. At least your tracks look good, that's a good early accomplishment.

[tkarhu]

Could a feeling of heaviness come from a lack of unweighting, when switching leads, too? A rhythm and flow of weighting and unweighting has helped, when I have moved to slightly faster slopes from bunny slopes.

Some quotes from @Harris and @zonca tell what the unweighting is about. It is very similar, when you do a parallel turn.

Have both skis equally unweighted during lead ski change, and then the both skis weighted settled telemark for ultimate edge engagement against the slope as you move through the turn to its completion.

In general:
– Keep moving vertically, when you get the the low point of your drop start rising into the next phase.
– Work on the feel of the turns while doing them. Think about the movements, when on the lift or climbing.
– Keep eyes up and looking down the slope, shoulders and hips with the eyes as much as possible.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1807

Further, @lowangle al wrote somewhere:

Unweighting your skis makes it easier and quicker to get across the fall line and it is followed by a weighting of the skis which will make it easier to flex and turn them. This is more important on xcd type skis than a more downhill oriented ski. The key is to get the edge set and weighted on your new lead ski asap to maintain control.

@lowangle al FYI he mentioned "Alfa Free/Falketind 62" earlier. Maybe the unweighting is not that important with those skis, but it has helped me with my Gammes there.

[Montana St Alum]

yikes, you wrote all of that about your experience trying to make tele turns with skins on? take the skins off, try again, and report back. its not worth trying to diagnose your tele skiing with skins on...its wildly unpredictable to ski that way

This!