Gear Set Up For Uphill (& Backcountry)

[metamorphosis108]

What about that T-4? I ski my T-4 at the ski hill with my Tindan which is 86 mm underfoot. The Vector is a nice ski, but probably a little wide for the T-4 at the resort. The K2 Wayback 84 is narrow enough to turn with a T-4, and would be more at home on Mt Cardigan than your Panorama 78, although it wouldn’t have scales.
The K-2 is an example, the Voile Objective would be available in a smooth or scaled base. These are still light backcountry skis, but far more capable than what you are now. The T-4 would also pair well with a softer flexing older style alpine ski in the 70’s-80’s underfoot range.
If you want to go full on resort, with backcountry touring possibilities go up to the Scarpa TX Pro NTN boot. Go for an NTN touring binding, Outlaw X seems popular on the lifts, but it’s still light with a free pivot. Meidjo is a releasable NTN tech binding, and Lynx is the 22 Designs tech binding. You can talk to the guys at Telemark Down in NH about skis, as they would be happy to help you out.

What would be the advantage(s) of NTN over AT bindings?

[TallGrass]

To confirm one thing Phoenix states. Scales are not pleasant at the resort. Slightly more pleasurable than a root canal!

If I am wanting to perfect my turns and downhill skills, wouldn't being somewhat slow with fischscales work to my advantage? Or do the fishsclaes interfere with more than the speed aspect

There are two broad categories of "fishscales": proud (+) and recessed (-). A traditional FS is a flat base that looks like someone took a barrel Dremel and cut a bunch of halfmoon recesses in a honeycomb pattern so snow gets UP in the pocket. Other designs may cast in a design or cut "ladders" or cast in "roof shingles" which has the same effect of sticking up all the way across so it bites DOWN into the snow. A recessed pattern will glide better than proud one. In use, everything wears down flatter. Proud is far more common.

Couple photo examples.
https://telemarktalk.com/viewtopic.php? ... 420#p54032
https://telemarktalk.com/viewtopic.php? ... 213#p51210

Here's a video of going down resort Greens after spending a day there on waxable (kick wax, no scales) Nordics with 3-pin leather boots (not the easiest way, but 'tis what I got), gear at top of thread.
https://telemarktalk.com/viewtopic.php? ... 733#p58474

EDGES: more important that scales is that you'll likely need two things on their slopes -- metal edged skis (mine were partial in just the middle, but that worked) and ski leashes (I improved by tying an old shoe lace in a loop, girth hitched it to the ski's 3-pin binding side, then either looped it through a closure on my gaiters or used a mini carabiner).

If you want to work on Telemark Turns, I would AVOID AT gear. Whatever boots+skis you get, make sure you can edge with them. A wide pow' ski requires too much lateral leverage out of laced leather boots making it much harder to hockey stop. A locked AT heel won't let you work on tele' turns, and I don't see using just the 2-pin AT front as wise (lots of stress on pins, no feedback, possible to execute by the experienced in a pinch but ...).

If you're going to do laps at resort, I'd consider either skins or snowshoes (A-frame the skis). You might also be able to do kicker skins. Don't know what your budget is, but you can do it for $150 or $1,500.

What would be the advantage(s) of NTN over AT bindings?

NTN is designed to be "skied down hills" without the heel locked in. ATs are not. There can also be differences in technique such as just dragging the ski along and NOT lifting it (AT) versus Nordics which are lifted as the foot/ski is advanced (hence premium on light skis+bindings+boots). AT (ALPINE Touring) is more robust (heavier) for Alpine style skiing down hill. Nothing stopping folks from lifting an AT nor dragging a Nordic nor texting while skiing.

AND then there's Tele' Touring bindings that hinge pivot like an AT, then you can lock that plate down (swing lever to side in front), and pivot via the Tele boot (resistance, lateral differences). AT uphill (and flat XC), Telemark downhill.
https://www.voile.com/voile-switchback- ... nding.html







Think of it like aircraft, there's stunt planes, and their ultra-lights. Both fly, both can ascend, however...

[fisheater]

@metamorphosis108 The advantage of a NTN binding over an AT binding is that you can make Telemark turns with an NTN binding, you also have metatarsal flex in the boot which will allow for kick and glide in the flats.
If you want to make alpine turns, AT gear is actually lighter. If I may editorialize for a moment, AT gear is lighter, because alpine is easier, so therefore AT has a much larger market to pay for the development costs of high tech light gear. I conclude my rant.
Now if you want to lock your heel, the Meidjo NTN binding, which is releasable, also offers a locking heel piece. However I’m not sure if there is a Telemark boot that functions with that heel piece.
Hope that helps

[lilcliffy]

A few intial thoughts/questions-

I am wondering why you are considering Alpine Touring boots and bindings-
are you considering moving away from Nordic-Telemark downhill skiing?

I don't know your background- are you an experienced-skilled skier- is your skiing background Alpine-downhill?

Although- to some degree- any skiing is good for personal skiing development→ strength, balance, procedural learning-
Being an experienced and skilled Alpine skier, will certainly be "easier" to transition to Telemark, vs a completely new skier-
if you want to develop your Nordic-Telemark downhill skiing skills- I would stick with it.

Re a scaled base on a groomed hill- yes, they kinda suck- but, if you don't care about the noise and the reduction in glide- who cares?

However- if your plan is to efficiently climb- you want/need full-length (or at least racing) climbing skins. Scales alone are not going to get you efficiently up steep terrain.

What have you got right now in terms of skis-boots-bindings-skins?
Maybe all you need is climbing skins to get started and try this.

[metamorphosis108]

A few intial thoughts/questions-

I am wondering why you are considering Alpine Touring boots and bindings-
are you considering moving away from Nordic-Telemark downhill skiing?

I don't know your background- are you an experienced-skilled skier- is your skiing background Alpine-downhill?

Although- to some degree- any skiing is good for personal skiing development→ strength, balance, procedural learning-
Being an experienced and skilled Alpine skier, will certainly be "easier" to transition to Telemark, vs a completely new skier-
if you want to develop your Nordic-Telemark downhill skiing skills- I would stick with it.

Re a scaled base on a groomed hill- yes, they kinda suck- but, if you don't care about the noise and the reduction in glide- who cares?

However- if your plan is to efficiently climb- you want/need full-length (or at least racing) climbing skins. Scales alone are not going to get you efficiently up steep terrain.

What have you got right now in terms of skis-boots-bindings-skins?
Maybe all you need is climbing skins to get started and try this.

I am certainly not considering moving away from Nordic-Telemark; I was merely exploring options and seeking suggestions from the experienced folks like you here for the best cross-over gear rig that would serve me well on the groomers (for uphill fitness orientated laps) as well as on not too steep backcountry terrains (MA-NH-VT). I had no prior skiing experience until two years ago. I picked up Nordic skiing in 2021 and took tons of lessons, including several BC and Telemark workshops, and have been skiing almost every weekend since (during the season) to flatten out what otherwise seems to be a steep learning curve.

As for the existing gears, I have the following:
1) Fischer Spider 62 with NNN-BC, OTX Adventure BC (only used at nordic touring centers).
2) Fischer Traverse 78 with NNN-BC, Crispi Nordland Hook BC. I have a set of EZ skins for Traverse 78 to climb somewhat steep pitches. I use this on un-groomed bc areas at Nordic centers, forest service roads, and mellow bc trails such, as Greeley Ponds, Connie's Way, Zealand Hut. I am considering switching to Rottefella ST and Crispi Bre for this set up.
3) Madshus Panorama 78 with Rottefella ST w/cable on Voile Risers, Crispi Bre. Haven't taken it out on anything steep other than Duke's Trail (Mt. Cardigan, NH). I am in the process of getting Scarpa T4 for this set up to have better downhill control and efficient turns. I have a full length skins for Panorama 78.

[lilcliffy]

@metamorphosis108
Ok- this gives me/us way more context.

IIRC- you have already stated (in another thread) that you have trouble with your Fischer 78 + Nordland boot on hard-icy snow- correct? If so- there could be a number of reasons for this:
- the ski is too stiff and cambered for your weight as a downhill ski
- the Nordland boot is not enough for you to drive that ski
- need a higher level of skill/strength

Regardless of your personal skill- sounds like the Fischer 78 is not working for you as a downhill ski.
So- you either need a shorter Fischer 78; or a less cambered ski (e.g. Madshus 62; Asnes Nansen); or a stiffer more supportive boot.

I am not farmiliar with the Nordland boot, but it looks less supportive than a Crispi Stetind, or Svartisen, or Alpina Alaska...Impossible for me to know whether a stiffer BC-XC boot would be enough for you to drive your current Fischer 78 on hardpack...And- if it doesn't, perhaps a waste of money if you are otherwise happy with the Nordland.
Hard for me to say (don't know either boot) whether the Bre is going to give you much more support and leverage over your Fischer 78 than the Nordland. For example, UTE magazine tests rate a number of NNNBC boots as being more supportive downhill than the Bre (Stetind BC; Svartisen BC; Alaska BC). I kinda doubt that the Bre will be enough for your Fischer 78 onhard-icy hills...

In the end- I kinda doubt that you are ever going to be thrilled with the Fischer 78 as a downhill focused ski on Northeastern icy hardpack...The Fischer 78 is definitely tuned for backcountry cross-country touring- not downhill skiing...

You should be able to find a decent and suitable downhill ski(s) used.

Putting 75mm on your Fischer 78 will allow you to use the T4 boot with it- you will definitely be able to drive that ski with a T4 boot- it won't make the Fischer 78 a great downhill ski, but it will work.

[lilcliffy]

I am certainly not considering moving away from Nordic-Telemark; I was merely exploring options and seeking suggestions from the experienced folks like you here for the best cross-over gear rig that would serve me well on the groomers (for uphill fitness orientated laps) as well as on not too steep backcountry terrains (MA-NH-VT).

If you are not planning on skiing extreme backcountry terrain- and are happy with your current setups for BC Nordic Touring in the Northeast- then, you certainly don't need AT equipment.

[metamorphosis108]

@metamorphosis108
Ok- this gives me/us way more context.

IIRC- you have already stated (in another thread) that you have trouble with your Fischer 78 + Nordland boot on hard-icy snow- correct? If so- there could be a number of reasons for this:
- the ski is too stiff and cambered for your weight as a downhill ski
- the Nordland boot is not enough for you to drive that ski
- need a higher level of skill/strength

Regardless of your personal skill- sounds like the Fischer 78 is not working for you as a downhill ski.
So- you either need a shorter Fischer 78; or a less cambered ski (e.g. Madshus 62; Asnes Nansen); or a stiffer more supportive boot.

I am not farmiliar with the Nordland boot, but it looks less supportive than a Crispi Stetind, or Svartisen, or Alpina Alaska...Impossible for me to know whether a stiffer BC-XC boot would be enough for you to drive your current Fischer 78 on hardpack...And- if it doesn't, perhaps a waste of money if you are otherwise happy with the Nordland.
Hard for me to say (don't know either boot) whether the Bre is going to give you much more support and leverage over your Fischer 78 than the Nordland. For example, UTE magazine tests rate a number of NNNBC boots as being more supportive downhill than the Bre (Stetind BC; Svartisen BC; Alaska BC). I kinda doubt that the Bre will be enough for your Fischer 78 onhard-icy hills...

In the end- I kinda doubt that you are ever going to be thrilled with the Fischer 78 as a downhill focused ski on Northeastern icy hardpack...The Fischer 78 is definitely tuned for backcountry cross-country touring- not downhill skiing...

You should be able to find a decent and suitable downhill ski(s) used.

Putting 75mm on your Fischer 78 will allow you to use the T4 boot with it- you will definitely be able to drive that ski with a T4 boot- it won't make the Fischer 78 a great downhill ski, but it will work.

This is super helpful! What would you recommend as suitable downhill skis that would pair well with T4 for variable snow conditions in the Northeast and something that I could ride for uphill fitness laps at a local resort on greens and blues?

[Whiteout]

Meta, knowing your situation and experience more now from this and the other thread, I propose this wild idea. Get a cheap last generation alpine rental fleet ski to learn on and really experience the telemark turn in area. Delayed lead changes, monomarks, etc. It worked for me. I got some Salomon X-sceams for $50 and mounted them tele. 68 under foot, no camber, edged perfectly and turned easily. Once you have that turning on hard pack better worked in, then spring for other boards. Just an idea. Great luck!

[fisheater]

Meta, knowing your situation and experience more now from this and the other thread, I propose this wild idea. Get a cheap last generation alpine rental fleet ski to learn on and really experience the telemark turn in area. Delayed lead changes, monomarks, etc. It worked for me. I got some Salomon X-sceams for $50 and mounted them tele. 68 under foot, no camber, edged perfectly and turned easily. Once you have that turning on hard pack better worked in, then spring for other boards. Just an idea. Great luck!

Great idea, with a plastic boot