What boots to buy??

[Love the Sierra]

WOW!!! You guys are fantastic!!! So glad that I found this group!!
Apologies for the delay in replying, work has been all consuming.

I cannot complain too much about my Fischer kit. They were cheap at a time when there was not a ton of money and i bought them for myself and two teenage kids. We had a LOT of extremely enjoyable outings with them. Up until two years ago, they did not hurt me, it must be the creasing as @lilcliffy said. It was good as a starter kit. I skijored with TWO dogs with this kit, so it was good for many memories. Now it is time for slightly more advanced and better gear.

Anyway, @Manney great advice, thank you! You are right, walking isn’t skiing. I may ski up and down my hallway on the carpet for a bit since it is summer and the gear must be unused to return it. You mentioned lots of boots between the Fischer and T4, other than Ski March and Crispi, what other suggestions. I have only been able to find the really beefy AT boots.

@Tom M THANK YOU! Works easily!!

@mca80 for the sizing tips. I would have never realized. So are all of these used boots that i am looking at on EBay?

The closest ski shop to me is 8 hours away in Mammoth and they do not really cater to back country touring gear, but more of the AT stuff.

For reference, I hike and backpack in Scarppa Kinesis size 41. I have wide feet from decades of carrying a heavy pack!

If I am understanding correctly, most of the options are used boots nowadays?

Finally, a bit of news, Scarppa doesn’t answer their phone, but if you leave a message, they call back within 20 minutes. The customer service rep, Christine, told me that for the rolling ski touring I am doing, I probably will not be happy with the T4. She suggested I try the Crispi. I contacted Telemark Down, the Crispi distributor and the owner, Martin is very helpful. He also sells the Scarppa T4 and he said that it will be very fatiguing on rolling terrain and not enough downhill enjoyment to justify it. I got the Crispi Svartisen from them and I am waiting for it to arrive.

Since I have hard to fit feet, any other boot suggestions to try out are welcome!

Again, Thank you all so much!

[Manney]

If you were considering T4s, then it seems that you’re looking for something pretty beefy @Love the Sierra. Don’t know if that’s still the case following your discussion with Scarpa customer service though, so the list below includes both high and moderate levels of support (non plastic boots).

75mm options from high to low $ are ALFA Polar Advance, Lundhag Guide Expedition, Crispi Svartisen or Antarctic, Fischer Transnordic, Alpina Alaska 75/TR Free 75, Rossignol BC11. Also the Alicos, provided you find one locally to try on. Maybe a few others that my coffee deprived brain has overlooked…

Half these boots fall under “specialty retailer”, so you won’t find them at Dick’s or small town sports stores. Definitely road trip time, but that’s OK if you’re thinking about skis too. BC is kind of in a fringe better covered by ski specialists anyway.

75mm options are shrinking tho. More options a few years ago, fewer each season. Some of the more expensive old school brands are holding on but the mass market brands are scaling back. So if you’re starting to find yourself in the $500 & up range for boots, consider a jump to NNN BC or especially Xplore, where the options are much more numerous and the future is a little more certain.

Used is an option but it’s a lottery. You’d scour three states looking for the same number of used possibilities that could be found, new, in a ski town. The pin line on a 75mm boot is prone to wear and abuse too, so a used boot might have a very short life. (Another reason to think about bindings and the future).

If you have access to an elliptical trainer, try the boots there. (You can find one in a local gym wherever you buy your boots… just talk nicely to the trainers and they’ll probably let you on the equipment… if they’re sports ppl). You’ll have to consciously bend your toes but the range of motion is more ski like… will give you some additional confidence about your purchase before the long drive home.

[lilcliffy]

walking isn’t skiing.

This is an interesting statement-
I say this because traditional Nordic ski touring VERY MUCH walking/striding- on skis.
(Please correct me if I am wrong here)- but my understanding is that there is no verb for "skiing" in Norse and Norwegian-
my understanding is that Norwegians describe backcountry Nordic ski touring as "hiking on skis"...Interesting to think about!
(Hopefully this is somewhat correct and not a myth that I have fabricated in my mind! )

The closest ski shop to me is 8 hours away in Mammoth and they do not really cater to back country touring gear, but more of the AT stuff.

The reality is that in the North American context "backcountry ski touring" does equal "AT" conventionally-
the notion of "hiking on skis" has somehow fallen out in many contexts. I have caught local shops in Eastern Canada selling customers full-on AT setups for going out in their rural backyard to hike on skis.

For reference, I hike and backpack in Scarppa Kinesis size 41. I have wide feet from decades of carrying a heavy pack!

This is relevant and interesting. I too wear (and LOVE) the Scarpa Kinesis as my hiking/backpacking boot. Did you manage to order them in a wide last? I do not find standard Scarpa lasts to be wide (or large volume)...(There are wide versions of may of their models).
Or- did you stretch them- either deliberately, or through use?
Or- perhaps, is your foot not as wide as you might think it is (i.e. they were at one time narrow- and now are wider- but not truly "wide")? Would be relevant to know which last your Kinesis is...The standard Kinesis last is not "wide"...

If I am understanding correctly, most of the options are used boots nowadays?

No- loads of excellent new boot options.

Finally, a bit of news, Scarppa doesn’t answer their phone, but if you leave a message, they call back within 20 minutes. The customer service rep, Christine, told me that for the rolling ski touring I am doing, I probably will not be happy with the T4. She suggested I try the Crispi. I contacted Telemark Down, the Crispi distributor and the owner, Martin is very helpful. He also sells the Scarppa T4 and he said that it will be very fatiguing on rolling terrain and not enough downhill enjoyment to justify it. I got the Crispi Svartisen from them and I am waiting for it to arrive.

Cool- will be very interested to hear how the Svartisen fits you! (I have pair BTW.) What size did you order? They are not "wide"- similar width last as the standard Kinesis.

Since I have hard to fit feet, any other boot suggestions to try out are welcome!

I will wait to make other suggestions until you report on the fit of the Svartisen.
.......
It's great- in theory- to recommend against ordering boots online...
Ordering boots online is the only reasonable option for many.

[Manney]

I say this because traditional Nordic ski touring VERY MUCH walking/striding- on skis.
(Please correct me if I am wrong here)- but my understanding is that there is no verb for "skiing" in Norse and Norwegian-
my understanding is that Norwegians describe backcountry Nordic ski touring as "hiking on skis"...Interesting to think about!
(Hopefully this is somewhat correct and not a myth that I have fabricated in my mind! )

Go for a walk. If you’re like most people, you will heel strike, roll onto the ball of your foot, then push off. Basic human locomotion… even in “Nordic walking”

There is no heel strike in XC… the binding makes it impossible to lift the toe. So there is no roll onto the foot. It is flat footed, lifting heel, then rolling onto the ball of the foot and toes. The follow through on skiing (the kick) is more pronounced. More knee and foot flex too.

This has implications on how the foot moves in a boot.

Shuffling on skis is the same as shuffling in running shoes though. But that’s not good diagonal striding technique. It is slow and inefficient.

The other element of a classic XC stride often overlooked is the side to side motion. This is the result of engaging the glutes to assist in weight transfer and propulsion. It’s a major muscle group that contributes to locomotion on skis, which is why we can easily ski faster than we can walk or even run.

There’s also abduction. When we walk, we do so with our feet splayed outward. Anywhere between 10-20 degrees, unless you’re pigeon toed (which is a gait deformity). When XC skiing, the ski and binding reduces abduction to near zero degrees. It can deviate a bit on hard slippery surfaces but in powder one must keep the skis parallel to minimize wandering and speed loss. This affects the way the foot flexes.

All of these things make XC skiing different, from a locomotion perspective, to running or walking. If this were otherwise the case, people would take to efficient XC striding with very little difficulty. But they don’t. Gaining an efficient XC technique takes a lot of practice precisely because it is so different from the more natural movements of walking and running.

https://nordicskilab.com/courses/learn-diagonal-stride/

There is a Norwegian term… å gå på ski = walk on skis. There is also a Swedish term… skidlöpning = ski running. Can’t take these terms literally because these idiomatic expressions emerged centuries before the formal analysis on skiing gait, locomotion.

Go ahead… go for a walk and analyze what your feet and legs are actually doing. Then look at classic XC stride on video… many examples available.

[Love the Sierra]

@Manney I guess what i need to explain is that I do not want to begin to tackle more steep terrain. I will never go searching for downhill thrills. I just want to more efficiently control my skis and, therefore, I am looking for a boot that will give me more control. Thank you for the other boot suggestions, I will look into them. I want to side step less and ski more down trickier downhill terrain.

@lilcliffy I need to post a picture! I am a woman and a normal men’s boot, like Kinesis, is perfect for me. I cannot wear women’s hiking boots or any athletic shoes and it is nearly impossible for me to find ladies dress shoes. Interesting that skiing is the same word as hiking in Norse. I started skiing because i could not bare to say goodbye to my Sierra trails during the winter. When we visited Steamboat Springs one winter, I was very excited that when they refer to BC touring, they use the verb hiking!

Another big goal for me is to be able to ditch my snowshoes and ski when I do spring backpacking. My pack for snow camping is HEAVY and I cannot stay up on my skis with a full pack on. Maybe it is me, not the gear? In any case, I probably need two kits for this, one for backpacking and one for day hiking. My usual day out is either completely my own steam or skijoring, about 6-8 miles with a 1000-1500’ elevation gain/loss over rolling or steadily climbing terrain. So, I am out to slowly enjoy the beauty of the mountains I love. I would also love to improve my telemark skills. How fun that would be!!! Just when I began to learn it, the teacher moved. I have not been able to find anyone else who would teach bc skills and telemark. …But that is a different thread for another time.

Thanks again!!

[Manney]

Efficient control in skiing requires technique. Technique requires practice. It can be assisted somewhat by gear but this is too often over emphasized. The overemphasis is the fault of ski companies (who want to sell more gear) and inexperienced skiers (who want to progress in the absence of physical or skills development).

Changing gear should follow a conscious decision to change skiing type/style (skating, classic, backcountry, tele, downhill, skimo) or an adapt an existing style to an anticipated change in conditions (track, groomed piste, marked trail, out of bounds powder). This is different than *replacing* gear, which is more about stuff wearing out.

One thing often overlooked is the ski “system”. Aligning boots, bindings and skis that work best together for the skiing context. Experienced skiers have multiple pairs of boots and skis, which allows them to select the system “of the day”. They have developed a range of skills and can usually ski well. Gear is selected to make the experience more efficient for each session.

The kind of control you’re looking for will take time to develop. You can fake it or cut a corner with a stiff boot and steel edged ski. All that will do is change the point of failure… so awkward skiing, slow skiing, or falls will happen, but at different points of the outing.

A more natural progression involves matching the ski system to your development and aspiration. In your case, this means a middle range set-up. The first half of my list, therefore, probably doesn’t apply. It’s not that those boots aren’t nice. Some might even fit well. But they won’t make your sessions better or more efficient because of where you are from a developmental perspective.

So a heavier boot? Yeah maybe a bit heavier. An edged ski? Sure. But the control they impart will only be as good as the control you apply. If you’re able to apply a high level of control, performance will be better. Otherwise, the added weight may actually make it harder to apply control… or do it with the finesse to ski smoothly.

It sounds like you’re “already there” in the way you’re approaching the subject of boots (looking for a little more comfort, support, fit etc. instead of expecting the boot to transform your skiing (which it never will in any qualitative way).

Find a boot that fits, keep hiking (or biking, or running, or workouts on an elliptical) regularly to build capacity, balance, and coordination. It’s as crucial in the off season as any gear you might buy for the ski season.

[mca80]

@Love the Sierra, creasing can be a big issue--with a leather boot you can apply conditioner to the top of the toe area and wearing them inside the home just lift your heel repeatedly as you would skiing and try to develop the crease where you want it.

All the Alico Ski March online are army suplus--some unused, some used in varying degrees. This boot will help with downhill but from my understanding the regular xc kick and glide won't be as good as some of the other boots mentioned because they're really stiff.

For learning telemark, I suggest watching The Telemark Movie on the youtubes as well as some other instructional videos that have been posted here in various places, and practice practice practice, on gentle terrain, some elements even in the home. There's a good thread I will try to find that may be helpful.

Any ski shop with backcountry type gear, or REI if you happen to find yourself in a big city, should have Alpina Alaskas, another boot you could try.

Edit: here's a good thread for learning xc downhill:

https://www.telemarktalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5649

[lilcliffy]

@lilcliffy I need to post a picture! I am a woman and a normal men’s boot, like Kinesis, is perfect for me. I cannot wear women’s hiking boots or any athletic shoes and it is nearly impossible for me to find ladies dress shoes. Interesting that skiing is the same word as hiking in Norse. I started skiing because i could not bare to say goodbye to my Sierra trails during the winter. When we visited Steamboat Springs one winter, I was very excited that when they refer to BC touring, they use the verb hiking!

Ok- now I understand better. My wife, (and one of my two daughters) need to wear men's athletic footwear (sneakers, hikkers, ski boots) as well. Their feet are not "wide", but wider then a conventional "women's" last. (My other daughter has a narrower and smaller-volume foot and get's the best fit from a "women's" last).

My wife and daughter also have large-volume feet and ankles (i.e. their instep measurement is longer than their foot length). The interesting thing is that ultimately having a large-volume foot is actually easier to fit for- because you can alway size up!

With low-volume feet- you can't size down (not without amputating your toes)- so us skinny-footers need to either take up volume inside the boot and/or find a boot with a more suitable last.

I will be interested in how your fit is in the Svartisen. I have two pairs of Crispi boots (including the Svartisen) and the width and volume is ideal for me, but the heel and ankle section is too open, so I get problems with heel-lift. I love the quality and design of both my Crispi boots, but I must admit that they don't fit me great.

Another big goal for me is to be able to ditch my snowshoes and ski when I do spring backpacking. My pack for snow camping is HEAVY and I cannot stay up on my skis with a full pack on. Maybe it is me, not the gear? In any case, I probably need two kits for this, one for backpacking and one for day hiking.

Yes- skiing with a very heavy pack is certainly very different than without!
And a lot of extra weight is not only going to affect your physical balance, strength and agility- it will also affect the performance of your ski.

Have you considered a pulk instead of a very heavy pack? I personally move to a pulk for significant weight (i.e. enough gear for a multi-day trip).

Considering different skis may also make sense...

[Manney]

In another thread, @Love the Sierra indicated dry weight of 120#, full up weight of 145#. Probably 10# of that is clothes and personal gear (skis, boots, bindings, base, intermediate, outer layer, gloves, hat), leaving 15# in the pack (12% of body weight). Equivalent to a 180# man carrying a 20-25# pack.

Certainly a good “skills” challenge if your skiing game is pretty solid. If it isn’t, can see it causing some problems that gear might not completely overcome…

Falling over on skis isn’t really ski or boot problem unless conditions are very challenging. Extra weight usually helps with traction on a high or stiff cambered ski.

Not dissing anyone’s skills here. Thinking thru the problem might avoid a purchase that doesn’t solve anything. Ill fitting boots? Chuck them out. Worn skis? Gonzo. Or maybe try something new, better suited to new challenges? Sure, go for it. Just be clear about the problem you’re trying to fix first.

A lot of pack weight can consist of stuff that’s not really needed. So if the weight is to blame, pare it down to the essentials and enjoy a less challenging ski.

[fisheater]

Hello Sierra Skier,
It’s summer, and I realize you may still be able to ski it’s time to read a little and absorb some information.
The first thing I would address is gear availability. I live in SE Michigan. We have resort alpine gear, and absolute crap recreational Nordic gear. If my local retailers actually sold some gear that performed and was fun I might have some skiers instead of just postholers on my local trails. So I understand your gear selection difficulties. However rest easy, most of what you need to learn is here. I am going to assume you want another NNN-BC boot. My easy button solution would be to look at the Alpina Alaska, and the Alfa selections available at REI. I suggest REI, because returns are easy.
Now let me divert to your T-4. It’s a great boot, but not a match for your E-88. It is more boot than what you need for a Fisher S-bound 98/112. However if you didn’t really know how to Telemark turns, but had some Alpine turning skills it may be just the ticket for a ski like the S-bounds, or much more to my preference a Voile Vector. While the T-4 will never have the ball of foot flex and kick of a leather boot, the flex does break in over time. Time like a good season of skiing.
Which brings me to a question. You bought a T-4, what binding system are you currently using?
There is a lot of good information to be found here. There are lots of great gear reviews. Lilcliffy, whom has offered you good advice does a really good job reviewing gear. Over the last 10 years plus I have been here he has reviewed a lot of skis and boots. If you search gear reviews, he has a lot of good writing. I will be checking in, but my best advice for now is start in the gear review section.
My other advice is no time like the present to start learning how to Telemark! I don’t think I ever heard anyone say I wish I never learned how to Telemark, pretty sure it’s something I have never heard!