What boots to buy??

[connyro]

“Many days in the snow”. Ha ha. Yep. That sounds like an expedition-level endorsement to me. It sounds like you’re ready to back up your advice with a $60 money back guarantee for @mca80. That’s appropriate given the strength of your convictions on this one @connyro.

If the clamps are misapplied, any thin metal between the Vibram sole and the welted sole will be bent. Could be a little, could be a lot. Only a man with X-ray vision could tell.

If the holes are elongated due to wear, it means that the pins are sliding around while skiing and the holes in any internal plates are elongated too.

Some of those holes look pretty gnarly. It’s not the result of a one off error. But if conny is guaranteeing them, go for it. What can you lose? Ha ha.

So no personal experience. That means you are once again, talking out your ass. Geez, it's almost like anytime someone (not just me) opposed manney's "advice", he bullys and makes fun of them. Blowhard.

[mca80]

As much as I dislike @connyro, he was providing useful (to me) information and an informed opinion that you may disagree with. No need to pick a fight here, choose your battles @Manney.

[Manney]

You can judge the character of a man by how he spends your money, drinks your whiskey.

Conny is willing to bet your money to prove me wrong. Don’t care whether anyone is right or wrong. Wouldn’t buy these boots myself based on the pics. Good conscience compels me to urge caution. Provided another pic showing what can lurk beneath the surface when pinholes elongated. Could provide many more, all of which would be disputed by conny.

You think this is some personality disagreement. It isn’t… to me. It’s brining something to your attention you didn’t notice… backing that up with another photo. Evidence, not opinion. Online opinion or claimed experience doesn’t count for Jack shit on the internet. Anyone over the age of 12 should know that.

Yer on your own @mca80. Conny won your vote for class clown. So let him spend your money and drink your whiskey as freely as he will.

There’s no common sense to anything online any more. It’s always a personality contest ffs. So spend yer money, buy new bindings, drill more holes in yer skis, and enjoy the ride.

PS. Send me pics of you wearing these boots to confirm you are putting your money where your mouth is (and not playing some bullshit popularity contest here).

[mca80]

Here's the Alico Ski March used I purchased. Aside from debris in the first hole, it looks like theres a thin piece of metal in there between vibram and rest of the sole. If that's what does the majority of work holding the pin, then some tear in the vibram shouldn't cause undue play, no?

Manney, what kind of hidden secondary damage inside could there be in the Asolos posted?

I probably don't need 2 more boots but in my size for $90 total with shipping and the prospect of NN becoming harder to find and/or the Ski March possibly causing issues, I was just considering it on a whim.

[fgd135]

This is what a NN boot with pin hole damage looks like when you cut away the sole:



When the holes are elongated, the pins wiggle around and cause all kinds of secondary damage that you might not be able to see.

Not all boots are build the same but pin hole elongation and cracking is a known point of failure for this style of boot.

Manny's illustrated boot has had some severe and extreme abuse, and it appears someone continued to try and use it after the sole was cracked, judging by the three holes punched into the leading edge of the damaged sole.
The Vibram telemark boot sole used on Norwegian welted leather boots has a permanently embedded steel pin protector plate molded into the sole. Boots can show what appears to be some apparent pinhole damage externally but still be quite solid and very usable. Only if a boot has a cracked midsole will damage shown in the photo above cause that type of failure. In fact, from many years of sales and service of that type boot, and hundreds of days in leather three pins I would say that boot toe cracked because the boot was, if anything, clamped too firmly in the binding, and overuse and over-flexion caused a midsole break. Continued deep knee-draggin' tele turns, and forward falls over the ski can also contribute to that type of damage.
"Smiley Plates" worked pretty well in 1981 on older tele boots (Kastinger, Fabiano, and the more-than-famous Galibier Double Ski Boot) that lacked the Vibram telemark sole, but to install a smiley plate on post-1981 boot requires drilling and tapping the imbedded pin plate, as well as routing the outsole to flush fit the smiley; frankly this weakens the boot more than in helps, imho.

An easy way to diagnose cracked midsoles is to look for vertical cracking on the side of the boot on the mid and outsoles. That can't be repaired except with a complete resole.
Those other boots with minor/superficial hole enlargements are nothing of concern and should work without issues in a 3 pin like the Voile or Rottefella, but ya know, using a 3-pin cable or a lightwt cable binding avoids any pin hole damage issues, as we have spoken of many times.

[connyro]

You can judge the character of a man by how he spends your money, drinks your whiskey.

Conny is willing to bet your money to prove me wrong. Don’t care whether anyone is right or wrong. Wouldn’t buy these boots myself based on the pics. Good conscience compels me to urge caution. Provided another pic showing what can lurk beneath the surface when pinholes elongated. Could provide many more, all of which would be disputed by conny.

You think this is some personality disagreement. It isn’t… to me. It’s brining something to your attention you didn’t notice… backing that up with another photo. Evidence, not opinion. Online opinion or claimed experience doesn’t count for Jack shit on the internet. Anyone over the age of 12 should know that.

Yer on your own @mca80. Conny won your vote for class clown. So let him spend your money and drink your whiskey as freely as he will.

There’s no common sense to anything online any more. It’s always a personality contest ffs. So spend yer money, buy new bindings, drill more holes in yer skis, and enjoy the ride.

You really don't know how a DISCUSSION forum works, do you? When people participate on a discussion forum, they discuss ideas, relay experiences, and express opinions. Hopefully, readers can glean the useful info and discard the info that doesnt seem to apply to them. Let people draw their own conclusions based on the discussion of different ideas, not just yours. No bullying, no making fun of, none of your shit is needed. For christ sakes.

[Manney]

Here's the Alico Ski March used I purchased. Aside from debris in the first hole, it looks like theres a thin piece of metal in there between vibram and rest of the sole. If that's what does the majority of work holding the pin, then some tear in the vibram shouldn't cause undue play, no?

Manney, what kind of hidden secondary damage inside could there be in the Asolos posted?

I probably don't need 2 more boots but in my size for $90 total with shipping and the prospect of NN becoming harder to find and/or the Ski March possibly causing issues, I was just considering it on a whim.

Gee, don’t know conny. My X-ray vision has failed me since buying a kryptonite lock for my mountain bike. What’s up with that? LOL

When somebody sells something used, it’s usually because they’re done with them. If there’s sign of damage, however minor, that’s a warning. Is it a certainty? Of course not.

There is enough shit for sale online that nobody has to swing at whatever crosses their plate. Easy to do, however, if your primary focus is on $s, FOMO, and not minimizing failure.

As for the dearth of NN gear on the market, you gotta ask yourself why. Back in the day, that system was pretty good. It’s been displaced by newer, better designs. Doesn’t mean that NN can’t be of service today, but it’s not as bulletproof as people like to think it is.

Evidence of this comes in a few forms. The most compelling to me is the military ski post. Look at the boots and binding systems. Nobody is using NN anymore unless it is with legacy gear. Even the Brits, one of the most parsimonious people on the planet, started dumping their Alico Ski March boots years ago.

They were all the rage on TT just a few years ago. Then people started finding out that used gear, well past its bbf date, isn’t always the great deal it seems to be. Peeling soles, hardened leather, peeling coatings, crushed toes etc. What a surprise! You mean you can’t buy a used, old boot, sight unseen for $25 that works as well as a modern one of obvious higher quality?

There’s a lesson somewhere in all this… but the human race lives on planet stupid and will make the same mistakes over and over in order to be part of the herd.

So we have people pumping time and money into boots with visible damage and iffy track records, attached to a binding that came from the time land forgot, etc., etc. Questioning this cycle of stupidity brings derision, even when backed by fucking photos.

Compare the photos of your boot with the boots on sale, The level of visible damage is far greater. But you ignore that because your boot is just fine. THAT is the echo chamber of the internet and another reason that stupidity prevails on planet earth.

There’s no mystery how a *discussion forum* works these days. It’s all opinion… even if the evidence (see photos of the boots up for sale) suggests caution.

[mca80]

One, why do you respond to me and call me conny? Two, I never said I was going to buy the Asolos. Three, I have stated previously I was ignorant of NN system and was seeking explanations. In the post containing the trashed boot photo you said there could be hidden secondary damage due to the elongated pin holes of the Asolos and I was merely seeking clarification of what could be happening under the hood.

[Manney]

Responding to both posts that preceded mine (conny’s and yours).

Let the NN discussion slide… pretty agnostic about the whole thing tbh. Always considered boot fit to be king for recreational skiing. Whatever comes after that comes…

The issue for boots comes down to points of failure. All systems have them. If the boots on sale were NNN BC with a bent toe bar, the advice to “pass” would have been the same. It it was Xplore with a seized pin or a separating sole (common points of failure for early Xplores), the advice would have been to “pass” too. Doubly so for anyone without the experience to correct the defects.

Not saying that’s me. Boots are expendable. They wear out… get a new pair. They bust… buy a different pair. Not enough hours in the day to be a father, husband, employee, tech, repairman, cobbler, skier. Anything that gets in the way of skiing or mountain biking (other than family or putting food on the table) is a distraction,

TBH, anyone who knows what’s going on under the hood has superhuman senses. Everyone else is guessing. That’s the truth. There are clues… some indirect (dude is selling them) and direct (photos), all of which don’t inspire confidence. Against these clues, we have opinion.

If you accept the opinion, you must reject the clues. Even the ones that are indisputable, like evidence of (at the very least) damage caused by misuse. And, yes, elongated pin holes are caused by bringing down the bail when the boot and binding are misaligned. That’s misuse. No other word for it.

So it comes down to that. Not a pissing contest. Not a popularity contest. A choice. Accept what you see with your own two eyes or make believe you have foresight or X-ray vision. Because the only boots we’re talking about are online. They’re not conny’s.

[fisheater]

@mca80 A consideration that has not been mentioned is that that Snowpine may be a Goldilocks boot hitting a sweet spot in between the Ski March and your new Bre. Who knows you could like the the Extreme better than the Ski March. If you can afford a $90 lottery ticket I would go for it. You might lose, or you could win big with some leather boots you use for years.
Good luck on whatever you may decide.
On another note, I noticed that you and @connyro have not always gotten along. I would say cheers to both of you in regards to this thread. Connyro offered some good advice, and mca80 acknowledged the good advice. I was nice to see