Scarpa T4 sizing

[CwmRaider]

So I measured 29 to 29.5 length, and got T4 size 30 after finding NTN boots 29 too tight. The fit was quite snug but became comfortable s after thermoforming the liners.
Now to find a good time to try them with my FT62s
Thanks all for the help and the updated comments in the review section

[tkarhu]

So, just curious as I may invest in a pair myself at some point, can anyone offer definitive descriptions of the widths of these boots, the Excursion, T4, and Svartisen? My foot length is a 26.5 mondo, so like, 8/8.5 US or 41.5/42 EU, but I sometimes encounter issues with narrower soled shoes, like my Rossi race boots, which are plenty long at 42EU but still on the tight end width wise. My foot is just a hair over 100mm wide, so I'm generally fine with either a W or a larger 8.5/42 when it comes to shoes. I think I recall having read somewhere on here a while back that Scarpas generally run narrow, but I'm not certain. Is that the case? Should wider footed people avoid T4s or am I completely wrong?

I don't think that holds true anymore with mouldable liners. My foot measures 26 x 113 that's a EEEE width. I wore 26.5 T2 ecos which were tight but fit. My T4s are a 27.5 and are very comfortable on my feet.

Having read of Al’s great experiences with 275 T4’s and 260 x 110/113 feet here, I bought a size 290 pair of T4’s second hand for my 270 x 110 feet. 285 and 290 Scarpa boots have same shells, as 275 / 280 etc. do. So I now have older T4’s with non-thermomoldable liners. I thought I could make them fit with thermo-moldable ones.

Having bought the T4’s, I had a look at second hand snowboard boots with thermomoldable liners and Intuition replacement liners. Seemed that basic thermomoldable liners like Burton Imprint and Ride boots’ Intuition liners take about 15 mm of boot room lengthwise.

I cannot understand how the shell sizing of foot length + 15/20 mm Mondo has felt great for Al with T4 stock Intuition liners. In my case, 290 T4’s with 270 feet seem way too big with any medium volume liners and EE / maybe EEE width feet. Maybe 0.5 size Scarpa boots make use of high volume liners? Even that does not explain the fit differences fully, though.

With the 290 T4’s, I had 42 mm of space behind my heel. Intuition recommends high volume liners for 38+ mm behind-heel-space shells. I guess boots generally come with medium volume liners, so my only option left was to buy high volume Intuition replacement liners new.

I went to a local Ski Service shop (called Ski Service) that sells Intuition liners. They had Pro Tour HV and some alpine wrap style HV Intuition liners in size 290. Those were of course tall with the T4’s, but somehow looked alright still sticking out of the boots.

However, it turned out that the boots’ heel fit had some wiggle, when I turned my foot and leg to certain positions. Having bought once 0.5 size overside Alfa Guards with a similar feel, I decided not to go for the T4’s, but sell them forward.

Even though wrap style liners are found generally too stiff for telemark, with T4’s the wrap style liners felt alright. Because T4’s have low shells, it is easy to press your shin against boot with the stiffer liners, too. Overall, the alpine Intuition liners felt better than the Pro Tour ones because the alpine ones gave a better fit.

@Rainbow83 For me, if I had even 275 feet, the 290 T4 shells may have worked out. However, many have had heel blister issues with T4’s, and for me heel fit was the T4’s weak point, too. Might 265/270 T4 shells work for you? I guess so, if heel fit would be snug and toebox fit tolerable before thermomold.

For me, 275/280 shells would have 32 mm behind-heel-space. With the smaller shells and HV liners, one may thermo-mold out any heel fit issues. However, ball-of-foot fit may be too snug, and I might not be able to push my feet into 275/280 T4’s at all with the thick liners.

[Capercaillie]

I cannot understand how the shell sizing of foot length + 15/20 mm Mondo has felt great for Al with T4 stock Intuition liners.

It would be nice if we could ask Al, unfortunately we can't. I did not read this forum during the summer and was very surprised and disappointed to come back and find many long-standing contributors like Al banned, and that horrible troll Manney still here.

Maybe 0.5 size Scarpa boots make use of high volume liners? Even that does not explain the fit differences fully, though.

The 280mm Intuition liners from my 2022/2023 season 28.0 T4s measure 15mm foam thickness at the cuff, and 15mm are the highest volume liners Intuition makes. I'm not sure what liners are in the T4s sold as 27.5, but they are not going to be any more high volume. Scarpa really does not make half sizes:

However, many have had heel blister issues with T4’s, and for me heel fit was the T4’s weak point, too.

The T4 shells have very deep heel pockets, and the stock liners seat very securely. Maybe it is the lack of instep buckles that results in heel lift, but I think the liners are more to blame. I had some heel lift inside the liners (and I haven't even had a chance to ski them yet) even after thermomolding and addition of foam J-bars on the medial side. I noticed that the first set of lace holes on the liners sit in a good place to use the laces to lock the heel by passing them around the shaft of the liner:

Tightening that first loop around the shaft locks the heel down a lot better. The stock Intuition liners do come with soft foam heel lock J-bar pieces glued on under the lining on the inside, but IMO they are too thin. Thermomolding can't really solve this problem. I think you need to add foam J-bars or ankle wraps on the outside of the liners.

Knowing what I know now I would start with (undersized for me) 27.0 T4 shells and try 9mm Intuition or maybe 7mm Palau liners. That would probably end up with more money being spent on liners and shell punching than the price of the boots.

[Manney]

The details of boots escapes me… my approach is try-on —> buy. Others are web shoppers. Doesn’t matter… Some ppl are very knowledgeable about fit characteristics. Either because they’ve done lots of web shopping and returns or hsearched a long time to accommodate difficult-to-fit-feet.

It would be great if one of these people could compile a master article on boots, starting with T2, T3, T4/shells and popular liners. Maybe put together a nomograph on mondo, us, eu sizing… and a nomograph on relative footbed widths at the sole, arch, and heel.

Then maybe do the same for in production leather and suede boots. Could see that being one of the handier online references and a touchstone for basic boot Qs.

Not looking to nominate anyone for work… know how much effort this entails having compiled a few comprehensive pieces on military skis, ski facilities, and wax. Just putting it out there to encourage any boot guys out there who might be on the fence about starting a piece.

Thoughts?

[tkarhu]

The 280mm Intuition liners from my 2022/2023 season 28.0 T4s measure 15mm foam thickness at the cuff, and 15mm are the highest volume liners Intuition makes. I'm not sure what liners are in the T4s sold as 27.5, but they are not going to be any more high volume.

I measured the internal and external lengths of the liners, and subtracted. There I got 13-15 mm for a few stock liners. I have a Hultafors measuring tape for measuring internal lengths.

The stock liners were 10-15 mm thick at cuffs. Liner cuffs seem often thicker, and material thickness to vary across parts of a liner.

The Ski Service Intuition wrap liner was noticeably thicker than a Pro Tour HV, even though Intuition classifies both high volume. I guess the HV wrap lkner was a Dalbello boot Power Wrap.

Thermomolding can't really solve this problem. I think you need to add foam J-bars or ankle wraps on the outside of the liners.

Yes I think so, too. Thermomolding will compress the spots of a liner where your foot and shell press the liner foam from both sides. Thermomolding does not expand liners, you do need extra material to fix wiggle issues.

Having a thicker liner might help still. An Intuition PowerWrap+ liner would have heel lock reinforcements built in to rhe liner.

People write PowerWrap+ is the thickest Intuition liner. Even though a PowerWrap+ is generally stiff, one did not restrict shin-to-boot-press with the low shell of a T4.

Knowing what I know now I would start with (undersized for me) 27.0 T4 shells and try 9mm Intuition or maybe 7mm Palau liners. That would probably end up with more money being spent on liners and shell punching than the price of the boots.

The T4 liner adjustment tricks sound great! As does finding a good liner thickness / shell size combo.

[wabene]

Yeah I miss Lowangle Al. If you read this forum, his contributions are inescapable and IMO much appreciated.

[Lhartley]

Lucked out and ran into like new t4's for 120 bucks. Very surprised at the vast difference between t4 and excursions. I had to work so hard get my heel to not lift in my slightly big excursions but the t4s just form around the heel and ankle perfect.

[JohnSKepler]

Should my experiment with the Garmont Telesaurus work out I will probably get some T4s. The boots I recently acquired have a quality control stamp showing 1999. I don’t know how old that is for boots but I know how old it is for me! But, I’m still doing okay or, as Fernando used to say back when comedy was humerous, “Better to look good than to feel good, and I look marvelous.” The Garmonts look pretty good too. A little rough in spots and I did repair the sole delamination with Barge cement.

At any rate, to weave this strand back into the thread, if a 25.0 Scarpa TxPro, after a thermo-fit, are the most comfortable of all the winter boots I own, can I expect that a 25.0 T4 will be the right size to order? Nobody, and I mean nobody near me carries any Tele gear to try on!

[tkarhu]

if a 25.0 Scarpa TxPro, after a thermo-fit, are the most comfortable of all the winter boots I own, can I expect that a 25.0 T4 will be the right size to order? Nobody, and I mean nobody near me carries any Tele gear to try on!

I cannot really tell, but several people wear foot length + 20 mm Scarpa boots. For me foot length + 20 mm T4’s felt clearly oversized, even with wide feet and thickest liners that you can find. However, others with both low voume and triple extra wide feet seem to wear the +20 mm Scarpa sizing.

I wear 10.5 […] Alpina 42 is perfect, and Alfa 42 is a bit large. All my Scarpa plastic boots are 28.

My feet are low-volume and not very wide, although I do have a sixth toe. (read: I need extra space around the toes to play around and get more control and stability...)

Having measured 43 and 44 Alfa Guard lengths (274 and 282 mm), I guess size 42 Alfas are about 266 mm long. So 280 mm seems to be +15-20 mm sizing in the above example. @JohnSKepler might measuring your feet help estimate fit? And comparing with others’ experiences.

I guess heel cup fit might be crucial, too. Some people write that T4 fit is different from other Scarpa models, and many have had heel rise issues with T4’s. Heel rise is my only issue with them, too. I am still considering whether to experiment with some J bars and half length footsoles with the oversize 285/290 T4 shells I have now.

In your situation, I may order several sizes because returning some might be inexpensive in the long run. 250 and 255 Scarpas will have different shell sizes, and shell fit might be crucial for what you can make work.

[wabene]

Two different new Scarpa T4's.

Size 29.5 new boots from Telemark Pyrenees

Size 28.5 "new?" boots from eBay

The most obvious difference are the buckles. The boots from TP are obviously the latest boot. The boots from eBay are probably new-old stock. The liners are slightly different. The larger boots from TP weigh about 100 grams a boot less. Is there a negative to an older but new version of the boot? Even though the smaller boot is heavier, it does feel way better. Does the presumably older boot still have a thermo-moldable liner?