Learning to turn with Gammes

[CIMA]

Transitioning from a-tele to b-tele skiing may require a change in mindset, which can be confusing for a-tele skiers at first. However, I believe that the concept of b-tele skiing is natural, and there are similarities between vehicles (cars or bikes) and four-legged animals (cats or horses). Both vehicles and animals have more weight on their rear side, which allows for more efficient and controllable turns when the front sides are lighter. However, there are some exceptions, such as front-wheel-drive cars, which took a long time to overcome disadvantages compared to rear-wheel-drive ones.

Unlike a-tele skiing, where the turning radius is fixed by the differential of the front and rear skis at the time of lead change and is not easy to adjust, b-tele skiing allows for an adjustable turning radius by changing the foot breadth and spinning speed of the leading ski. It may be challenging to understand without trying it, but you will gradually notice the difference as you get used to making b-tele turns.

[CIMA]

Regarding b-tele, I may not be familiar with the terms "Weighting" and "Unweighting" frequently used in alpine skiing. Unlike the alpine (or a-tele) techniques, the "Weighting" and "Unweighting" motions that involve changes in body height are not necessary for b-tele. Without such active movements, we can engage and disengage edges on a groomed surface. However, subtle and sometimes unrecognizable, unweighting probably exists in b-tele.
When I use the term "weighting," I mean it more like shifting weight from one foot to another while walking.

[Montana St Alum]

@tkarhu
As you have already had experience with kayak, you can apply the feelings you have acquired to the b-tele turn.
I've never tried kayaking, but I can find many similarities between the edging control of the kayak and the turn technique of b-tele when comparing videos on YouTube.
For example, watch the following video:



Let's imagine that Telehiro holds a Lurk pole instead of ski poles, and then you only concentrate on his movements of the pelvis and body axis. Forget about his leg movements for now. You'll see he looks like a paddler approaching downstream and making short turns.

Wow, I can really imagine that feel of kayaking, when I watch the above telehiro video! Well done @CIMA, marvellous visualization without any kayaking experience.

How about thinking this way: when you start a b-tele turn to the right, for example, you imagine riding on a kayak and making a right turn by planting a paddle to the right, simultaneously pressing down your right hip joint and then sweeping your pelvis clockwise while keeping your body upright and facing fall line.

I feel that going forward is actually the part of kayaking that has most in common with b-tele. However, I have done sea kayaking only, but have kayaked whitewater boats occasionally.

Sea and WW kayaks have quite different turning radiuses. Yet I think paddling forward technique is the same for both the kayaking disciplines.

When I paddle forward and make a right paddle draw, I press with my right foot against a pedal inside my boat. Before that, I have made a spinal rotation to the left, so my chest is facing slightly to the left. From that position, I release the rotation and make an opposite rotation, when pushing the pedal. During the "lead changes", I keep looking forward. My paddle rotates with my upper body, and I plant it into water close to my boat as near my boat bow that I can reach without leaning forward. Then I repeat the same on my left side. All the time my body weight is on my buttocks mainly, and I move forward with rotational movements, which transmit the force of pedaling to water.

If I want to turn right, I lengthen the left side of my trunk in the area between waist and ribs. Simultaneously, I shorten the right side of my trunk. So when you turn a sea kayak to the right, I think you edge the kayak onto its opposite edge compared to what direction you would edge a ski, when turning to the right.

EDIT: Edging a kayak actually does the same thing as pressuring and bending a ski. Both the maneuvers make your vehicle length shorter. Bottom shapes of sea kayaks are designed so that edging a kayak makes a "swimming hull" shorter than the length of a non-tilted boat. Correspondingly, bending a ski makes its functional length shorter than the length of the ski unweighted. So I guess you edge kayaks and downhill skis in quite different ways due to different mechanisms and reasons behind the maneuvers.

simultaneously pressing down your right hip joint and then sweeping your pelvis

I really do press a right hip joint down. Those are other words for lengthening a side I think. Yet I think I sweep less with a pelvis, but press a foot and rotate my upper body. I guess it goes like that, when kayaking, because you sit and lean your tail bone area against a kayak seat.

When turning right, while edging my boat, I make circular draws with my left paddle blade far away from my boat. When it is time to make a right paddle draw, I make a linear draw near my boat. So you make draws on both sides all the time, when you are turning a sea kayak.

Turning a sea kayak at speed takes several rounds of forward paddling draws. I then keep my kayak edged onto its side until my bow is close to the direction where I want to go.

Sometimes you edge a sea kayak also to keep going straight, when waves want to turn your boat. Waves try to turn a bow to the direction where the waves come from, when you paddle forward. Then you can also use weight transfers forward and backward. With the weight transfers, you can do stuff similar to unweighting skis because when on a wave crest, you can really unweighten a bow or stern. Well you actually use such unweighting also in some ”still water” draws, for example in a bow rudder.

Turning a whitewater kayak may be somewhat different because a sea kayak wants to go straight, but a ww kayak wants to turn. It can be a challenge to go straight with a ww kayak, just like it can be a challenge to XC ski on the flats with downhill sidecut skis.

One difference between edging a kayak and skis is also that you cannot bend a kayak. A kayak is so stiff, and water so fluid, without a solid base, that you cannot make use of kayaking to understand, how you can load your skis by pressuring and bending them.

The central part of the pelvis is considered crucial in martial arts, like Judo and Karate, as the core point of the movements. I think the pelvis is also essential when skiing. When I turn in b-tele, I try to sweep my pelvis first, less considering peripherals such as legs or the balls of my foot fingers. Being distracted by the peripheral parts of the body may end up with awkward body movements or a disaster like falling forward.

Finally, there is a big difference in strides between b-tele and cross-country skiing. From my point of view, the movements of the samurai walk (see the video) look very similar to my movements during b-tele turns. However, if correctly speaking, we should add turn movements like kayaking to that walking style to ski in a b-tele way.

I hope this will be some help to you.

Great to hear how you use pelvis to initiate movements in b-tele. This stuff is difficult to see on a video, but can be crucial to how a movement feels. So words can be really useful here.



Does the above video show, how ”b-tele walking” looks and feels also in your experience CIMA?

For me the video seems to explain also, what you mean by ”the center of a turn being inside a skier’s body” in b-tele. I guess it is related to going downhill in a relatively straight line. Did I get that right?

First of all, GREAT SKIING!

I don't want to derail anything, but WW kayaking is (was) a passion for me. The differences between turning in a displacement hull Vs. a planing (flat) hull are interesting in that there are multiple techniques that need to be in your "quiver of moves". I'm not correcting any concepts, just adding context.

Most displacement hulls are a bit hard to turn so often a bow draw stroke allows for decreasing turn radius while maintaining forward speed. The essence is an old technique called the "Duffek". In a displacement hull, you REALLY need to get the boat on edge for optimum turning (unless you release to spin). Sometimes a stern rudder can be a great way to get these little boats turning if you nee to control speed down a wave, or a bow or stern draw if you need to add speed or conserve speed. But in most cases, keeping your head (to drive CG) over and within the confines of the edges will keep you upright.

My son on some playwaves. At about 1:20 you can see how easy it is to catch an edge and see how letting your CG get away from you can end in disaster

You can also see the surfers/boards on the shore waiting their turn. Snake, Luch Counter at 12,00 CFS:



Me, just chillin with him when he was a little guy. He joins in at 2:30 and in a hardshell at the end a few years later:


And no, this contributes very little, other than a rarely presented opportunity to share kayak porn!

[fisheater]

Regarding b-tele, I may not be familiar with the terms "Weighting" and "Unweighting" frequently used in alpine skiing. Unlike the alpine (or a-tele) techniques, the "Weighting" and "Unweighting" motions that involve changes in body height are not necessary for b-tele. Without such active movements, we can engage and disengage edges on a groomed surface. However, subtle and sometimes unrecognizable, unweighting probably exists in b-tele.
When I use the term "weighting," I mean it more like shifting weight from one foot to another while walking.

Thank you Cima,
I have been following the “B” Tele discussion on 2 forums. For my kind of skiing which preferably is in soft snow, I look at all the rotation of the lead ski, and while I cannot help but admire the athleticism, I can’t see how it is a benefit it 3-D snow. I don’t think I could ever do it in manky 3-D snow.
So while I admire the amazing skiing demonstrated by one amazing athlete. I don’t understand why this technique would be recommended to beginning Telemark skiers.
It’s just my opinion, coming from alpine skiing from a PSIA background. I say that especially in this thread titled “Learning to Turn with Gamme’s”. While I will say I use the rocker and some rotation on the lead foot, while really just rotating and edge pressuring the following foot, I defy most anyone to rotate and drive the lead ski, on a XC optimally sized Gamme, on anything other than a perfectly groomed surface. Even on such a surface, it would still be quite a feat! Again, just my opinion, but I see “B Tele” is a more specialized technique, optimized for skiing light skis on groomed surfaces.

[Montana St Alum]

Regarding b-tele, I may not be familiar with the terms "Weighting" and "Unweighting" frequently used in alpine skiing. Unlike the alpine (or a-tele) techniques, the "Weighting" and "Unweighting" motions that involve changes in body height are not necessary for b-tele. Without such active movements, we can engage and disengage edges on a groomed surface. However, subtle and sometimes unrecognizable, unweighting probably exists in b-tele.
When I use the term "weighting," I mean it more like shifting weight from one foot to another while walking.

Thank you Cima,
I have been following the “B” Tele discussion on 2 forums. For my kind of skiing which preferably is in soft snow, I look at all the rotation of the lead ski, and while I cannot help but admire the athleticism, I can’t see how it is a benefit it 3-D snow. I don’t think I could ever do it in manky 3-D snow.
So while I admire the amazing skiing demonstrated by one amazing athlete. I don’t understand why this technique would be recommended to beginning Telemark skiers.
It’s just my opinion, coming from alpine skiing from a PSIA background. I say that especially in this thread titled “Learning to Turn with Gamme’s”. While I will say I use the rocker and some rotation on the lead foot, while really just rotating and edge pressuring the following foot, I defy most anyone to rotate and drive the lead ski, on a XC optimally sized Gamme, on anything other than a perfectly groomed surface. Even on such a surface, it would still be quite a feat! Again, just my opinion, but I see “B Tele” is a more specialized technique, optimized for skiing light skis on groomed surfaces.

I have a bit of a different take. But I'm mostly resort and don't ski Gamme's, so take with a grain of salt, I suppose.
IDK what "B tely" is, really, but you don't drive skis by rotating hips. You rotate hips so that they don't slow down or interfere with the skis as they turn.

Proper weighting combined with getting the ski on edge will allow the ski to do what it wants to do. Turn. The side cut will do the work, but the entire system of skis, body, hips, shoulders have a certain degree of rotational inertia. If you didn't separate the skis from the hips and above, the amount of energy required to keep rotating the upper body to keep up, directionally, with the lower body would burn oxygen and also slow the speed of the directional changes.

It's one reason why keeping the upper body facing downhill skiing the bumps is important.
It's why the "swing weight" of a ski for skiing bumps is of pretty low importance. If you're swinging skis, rotationally, rather than allowing the skis to do the work, it's a LOT of wasted energy.

[fisheater]

@MSU Alum i agree with everything you are saying. I also add that the Gamme isn’t a turning ski, it can be turned in the right conditions. It isn’t made to bend, so it doesn’t turn in any way a single camber ski would.
I’ve watched a lot of B Tele videos, there is a ton of rotation. It is a completely different style of turning than what you are talking about. That’s why I think it is a specialized technique. However watching Telehiro execute the style is impressive.

[Montana St Alum]

@MSU Alum i agree with everything you are saying. I also add that the Gamme isn’t a turning ski, it can be turned in the right conditions. It isn’t made to bend, so it doesn’t turn in any way a single camber ski would.
I’ve watched a lot of B Tele videos, there is a ton of rotation. It is a completely different style of turning than what you are talking about. That’s why I think it is a specialized technique. However watching Telehiro execute the style is impressive.

Understood.
I'll have to go back and look more closely at the technique.

[tkarhu]

WW kayaking is (was) a passion for me. The differences between turning in a displacement hull Vs. a planing (flat) hull are interesting in that there are multiple techniques that need to be in your "quiver of moves". I'm not correcting any concepts, just adding context.

Most displacement hulls are a bit hard to turn so often a bow draw stroke allows for decreasing turn radius while maintaining forward speed. The essence is an old technique called the "Duffek". In a displacement hull, you REALLY need to get the boat on edge for optimum turning (unless you release to spin). Sometimes a stern rudder can be a great way to get these little boats turning if you need to control speed down a wave, or a bow or stern draw if you need to add speed or conserve speed. But in most cases, keeping your head (to drive CG) over and within the confines of the edges will keep you upright.

My son on some playwaves. At about 1:20 you can see how easy it is to catch an edge and see how letting your CG get away from you can end in disaster

You can also see the surfers/boards on the shore waiting their turn. Snake, Luch Counter at 12,00 CFS:



Me, just chillin with him when he was a little guy. He joins in at 2:30 and in a hardshell at the end a few years later:

Wow, those standing waves look like great fun! It must have been nice to play there together.

The British style sea kayaks that I like, often designed by (Aled Williams, have a WW boat like square center part, with round tip and bow. Did not know there are different hull shapes also in WW kayaks. I guess the center part is essentially for planing.

Btw I love this video of Aled Williams playing in small waves. For learning, I once listed all the draws he uses in the video The list is in YT comments.



On many other videos by UK sea kayakers, you can see them playing in tide races, in similar standing waves.

in most cases, keeping your head (to drive CG) over and within the confines of the edges will keep you upright..[...] At about 1:20 you can see how easy it is to catch an edge and see how letting your CG get away from you can end in disaster

@Montana St Alum What does CG stand for? I did not get that yet, watching the video and reading this. It looks like he is leaning at 1:20, whereas normally you would maybe edge there in kayaking terms?

[tkarhu]

Unlike a-tele skiing, where the turning radius is fixed by the differential of the front and rear skis at the time of lead change and is not easy to adjust, b-tele skiing allows for an adjustable turning radius by changing the foot breadth and spinning speed of the leading ski. It may be challenging to understand without trying it, but you will gradually notice the difference as you get used to making b-tele turns.

@CIMA Do you mean width of feet? I was thinking of that today, when practicing for two hours at a resort. I thought that a narrow stance might be easier than a wide stance for b-tele, or generally for weighting your rear ski.

It seems mechanically difficult to weight your rear ski in a wide stance. Don't you need to have a lot of inclination in a wide stance to find your mountain side ski outer edge? Well, maybe I just have not got my angulation right yet. I guess you could incline more, if you would compensate the leaning with your upper body.

I have to say, I felt like a real beginner out there. But I guess it is not that trivial to ski 20° slopes with XC like gear So steep spots were mainly of use for me only, when practicing side slipping. At least that felt easy with the FTX's, unlike Gammes. I also expected side slipping to be easier on the FTX cambers of 1 or 1.5, compared to Gamme's stiff double cambers.

I was able to get a b-tele feel (of the walking exercise) only for a few passing moments on green like spots (10°). My FTX's are still 196 cm, and skiing them with NNN-BC felt quite similar to skiing Gammes mostly. Yet I could ski 20° gradients with the FTX's, whereas with my Gammes I have skied 15° max. Resort piste info was weird, on their web site piste lengths were double what I measured on a map. I did not plan to go 20°.

Most of the time I had to initiate a turn by carving with my valley side ski. At that stage, if I tried to weight my rear ski, it would cut into snow, and then I would get into real trouble with crossed skis soon. I even fell once on my butt there. So to get across fall line, I just first carved my valley side ski, and intentionally took weight off my rear ski. Then the mountain side ski rotated freely, followed the direction of the valley side ski, and I avoided the "ski cross issue".

A step turn was another practical turn, as an alternative for the tele described above. By carving a valley ski and unweighting a mountain side ski, I could at least avoid resorting to step turns. A positive side of the step turns was that I could practice weighting my rear ski ball of foot properly, when skidding after the steps. That felt like an useful practice, too.

Well, I was still maybe skiing tele exactly in a way that telehiro warns of: starting a turn already before fall line. Well at least I did not go to a tele stance before crossing the fall line. I have to say it is not completely clear to me what telehiro warns of with the "first lead change" comment CIMA gives in the citation below.

CIMA:

He demonstrates three different lead change options using skimo skis with NNN bindings in the video. However, due to the subtlety of his movements, some viewers may find it challenging to differentiate between these options.

The first lead change option that he demonstrates is often seen in telemark beginners. It involves initiating a telemark position in the first half of turns, which can lead to an injury as it causes a cross of the skis due to the differential turning radius between the lead and rear skis. He usually demonstrates this style as a bad example.

The second lead change option, which he calls the A-tele style, is commonly taught in ski schools by certified telemark instructors. This style is based on the concept of the parallel turn of alpine skiing. Skiers can initiate their turns by unweighting, and there is no difference in turn radius between A-tele and alpine skiing.

The third lead change option, which Telehiro refers to as "THE B-tele." You may see he is shuffling the legs as if on a twisting board. In reality, he repeats the following three steps: fix the left leg and sweep the right leg, return to neutral, fix the right leg and sweep the left leg. Note that both legs cannot move simultaneously like on a twisting board. He changes the turn speed by adjusting the sweeping radius.

The most significant difference between A-tele and B-tele is the location of the centers of turns. In A-tele, the centers are outside the skier's body, which is the same as in alpine skiing. In contrast, in B-tele, the centers are often inside the skier's body. This makes it easier for the skier to make quick, compact turns, which are rarely seen in alpine skiing.

To avoid getting my rear ski stuck into heavy resort snow, I used the intentional rear ski unweighing. I think there might not be that much need for that with backcountry powder on FTX's. Yet I have mostly weighted the inner edge of my front ski rear part with Gammes in the backcountry, too. I have thought that has been necessary with Gammes to bend a double camber flat for carving. Yet now I believe my rear ski getting stuck might have been another issue there, too.

I wonder how anyone can find resort snow easy to ski with XCD gear. Skiing powder with Gammes has felt a lot easier than soft resort pistes with FTX's The artificial snow was so wet and heavy that even a few cm's of it on top of my mountain side ski made the rear ski stick under snow. Powder is so dry and light that maybe you do not have the problem in the backcountry.

Riding lifts after a 30 years break felt useful and OK today. I made ankle / telehiro step drills, when going up. Today's practice at the resort was a little like learning kayak Greenland rolling at a swimming hall. It was nice being out there too, not many people and snow falling in the dark. Also a temperature of -15° C gave some outdoor feel, as well as skiing XC for a few kilometers to get to the pistes.

[Montana St Alum]

in most cases, keeping your head (to drive CG) over and within the confines of the edges will keep you upright..[...] At about 1:20 you can see how easy it is to catch an edge and see how letting your CG get away from you can end in disaster

@Montana St Alum What does CG stand for? I did not get that yet, watching the video and reading this. It looks like he is leaning at 1:20, whereas normally you would maybe edge there in kayaking terms?
[/quote]

Yes, at 1:20 as he hit the eddy line, he failed to lift up that edge of the kayak. Prior to the eddy, the water is rushing downstream and the water on the other side of the eddy line is rushing upstream, so it can really trip you up if you allow that edge to get caught. The fun part is that if you do it correctly, you can do a 180 degree turn right into a small eddy to rest or scout. Some droppy creeks have to be run in this fashion, as you are sitting low and come upon small "horizon lines" where you can't see obstructions or features.

Sea kayaking is fun, but I prefer being at the top of the food chain!
Surfing and playing in ocean areas where the tide is creating waves would be epic! And salt water in sinuses doesn't sting like fresh water.

CG is center of gravity. If your head is inside the lateral confines of the boat, the CG generally would be as well.

Sadly, I think my WW kayaking days are over. Trying to breath through my feet was becoming scary!
Normal progression - paddle really hard, go anaerobic, exhale, flip, try not to panic, roll/repeat.

This was a "Body Glove" video shoot. It's pretty cool!