Learning to turn with Gammes

[tkarhu]

Wow! That river surfing looks epic Must have been an amazing experience to be there.

[tkarhu]

Regarding b-tele, I may not be familiar with the terms "Weighting" and "Unweighting" [...] When I use the term "weighting," I mean it more like shifting weight from one foot to another while walking.

In his b-tele text, Telehiro uses the words "in air" ("in the air"). I have interpreted that the words mean same as unweighted. Others here have written that you can unweight also without going up and down.

To me, skiing Gammes, unweighting has meant returning to a relaxed and neutral standing position. It has been a passive state, a moment of rest. Relaxing there has helped to make sure that I have stopped edging a previous turn. I guess that has been a-tele, but in a quite way.

[tkarhu]

Looking at this video from 3:00 to about 7:00, I see many similarities between old school technique and b-tele.



First skier makes strong diagonal rear leg pushes (3:00-). Later on, skiers unweight going very little up and down (4:48–).

[CIMA]

Does the above video show, how ”b-tele walking” looks and feels also in your experience CIMA?

For me the video seems to explain also, what you mean by ”the center of a turn being inside a skier’s body” in b-tele. I guess it is related to going downhill in a relatively straight line. Did I get that right?

@tkarhu Sorry, I might have missed your question in your previous post.

I agree with your analysis. The video provides a general overview of the steps involved in b-tele turns, but there are some differences to keep in mind when practicing with skis on a slope. In the video, the student pivots by scuffing and weighting the entire forefoot of the leading leg, and then twisting the pelvis as if on a waist twister. However, these motions cannot be reproduced exactly on a slope. When skiing on a slope, the lead ski contacts the uphill side, which means only the big toe side of the ski contacts the slope. As you change over, the contact side shifts to the little toe side. Additionally, as the edge of the rear ski engages, the pressure shifts from the uphill side of the heel to the little toe, as shown in the following video:



Also, it will get harder to apply force to the pivot center by foot as the slope angle increases.
The feeling in your feet can be quite different on a slope compared to a flat surface.

Twisting motions become easier as the slope angle increases due to the increased partial force of gravity on the rotation surface. However, it's important to be careful not to lean on the lead ski, as the forces that make your body fall also increase.

[tkarhu]

Thanks @CIMA! Like @fisheater pointed out, with skis that want to track straight by nature, pivoting by sweeping can be somewhat challenging by nature. That came to mind reading this. So with Gammes, I would be open to different approaches to valley side ski technique, too.

Yet all other aspect of b-tele technique apply, I believe. And regarding the pivot / track dilemma, maybe with XC optimized double cambers you could just wait for your sidecut and carving to help with the pivot.

[CIMA]

Thank you Cima,
I have been following the “B” Tele discussion on 2 forums. For my kind of skiing which preferably is in soft snow, I look at all the rotation of the lead ski, and while I cannot help but admire the athleticism, I can’t see how it is a benefit it 3-D snow. I don’t think I could ever do it in manky 3-D snow.
So while I admire the amazing skiing demonstrated by one amazing athlete. I don’t understand why this technique would be recommended to beginning Telemark skiers.
It’s just my opinion, coming from alpine skiing from a PSIA background. I say that especially in this thread titled “Learning to Turn with Gamme’s”. While I will say I use the rocker and some rotation on the lead foot, while really just rotating and edge pressuring the following foot, I defy most anyone to rotate and drive the lead ski, on a XC optimally sized Gamme, on anything other than a perfectly groomed surface. Even on such a surface, it would still be quite a feat! Again, just my opinion, but I see “B Tele” is a more specialized technique, optimized for skiing light skis on groomed surfaces.

Telehiro's YouTube channel features many examples of him demonstrating the b-tele turn using a variety of gear, including XC, 3pin NNN-BC, 75mm wire, and NTN, on various snow conditions. While the b-tele technique may not be suitable for everyone, it has several advantages over the a-tele technique.

After transitioning from a-tele to b-tele, I have come to appreciate the following benefits of the b-tele technique:

1. Efficient movements that reduce stress on the skier while skiing.
2. Low impact on the snow, which can help reduce the risk of avalanches.
3. Greater controllability, allowing skiers to adapt more easily to changes in terrain.

It's worth noting that Telehiro can also teach the a-tele technique if you prefer. Ultimately, the choice between a-tele and b-tele is a matter of personal preference.

[CIMA]

I have a bit of a different take. But I'm mostly resort and don't ski Gamme's, so take with a grain of salt, I suppose.
IDK what "B tely" is, really, but you don't drive skis by rotating hips. You rotate hips so that they don't slow down or interfere with the skis as they turn.

Proper weighting combined with getting the ski on edge will allow the ski to do what it wants to do. Turn. The side cut will do the work, but the entire system of skis, body, hips, shoulders have a certain degree of rotational inertia. If you didn't separate the skis from the hips and above, the amount of energy required to keep rotating the upper body to keep up, directionally, with the lower body would burn oxygen and also slow the speed of the directional changes.

It's one reason why keeping the upper body facing downhill skiing the bumps is important.
It's why the "swing weight" of a ski for skiing bumps is of pretty low importance. If you're swinging skis, rotationally, rather than allowing the skis to do the work, it's a LOT of wasted energy.

When discussing downhill skiing techniques, it may not be appropriate to limit the scope to specific gear such as walk-oriented narrow skis.
In terms of energy consumption, vertical movements and the retaining forces of muscles required to hold a stance seem to have a greater impact than rotational movements. The former movements are done against gravitational force, while the latter ones are done by following the component of gravitational force on the slope. Additionally, while the former movements mainly activate outer muscles like quadriceps and gluteus, the latter ones activate inner muscles like iliopsoas. The inner muscles are said to be less prone to fatigue.

[Montana St Alum]

I have a bit of a different take. But I'm mostly resort and don't ski Gamme's, so take with a grain of salt, I suppose.
IDK what "B tely" is, really, but you don't drive skis by rotating hips. You rotate hips so that they don't slow down or interfere with the skis as they turn.

Proper weighting combined with getting the ski on edge will allow the ski to do what it wants to do. Turn. The side cut will do the work, but the entire system of skis, body, hips, shoulders have a certain degree of rotational inertia. If you didn't separate the skis from the hips and above, the amount of energy required to keep rotating the upper body to keep up, directionally, with the lower body would burn oxygen and also slow the speed of the directional changes.

It's one reason why keeping the upper body facing downhill skiing the bumps is important.
It's why the "swing weight" of a ski for skiing bumps is of pretty low importance. If you're swinging skis, rotationally, rather than allowing the skis to do the work, it's a LOT of wasted energy.

When discussing downhill skiing techniques, it may not be appropriate to limit the scope to specific gear such as walk-oriented narrow skis.
In terms of energy consumption, vertical movements and the retaining forces of muscles required to hold a stance seem to have a greater impact than rotational movements. The former movements are done against gravitational force, while the latter ones are done by following the component of gravitational force on the slope. Additionally, while the former movements mainly activate outer muscles like quadriceps and gluteus, the latter ones activate inner muscles like iliopsoas. The inner muscles are said to be less prone to fatigue.

True. Regardless of the gear, keeping tabs on the movements, stances, etc. involved in turns can pay off if you try to limit expending energy. I try for a very upright stance (not always successfully) including having my boot cuffs one notch more upright. With differences in techniques and gear, everyone will be a little different, but that up and down motion is sure to be the biggest single factor, I'd think. And of course, the xc-ers will burn a huge amount of energy on the long climbs!

[tkarhu]

Looking at this video from 3:00 to about 7:00, I see many similarities between old school technique and b-tele.



First skier makes strong diagonal rear leg pushes (3:00-). Later on, skiers unweight going very little up and down (4:48–).

How the above video skiers use weighting at 3:00 vs. 4:48, is similar to what fisheater wrote on b-tele yesterday (below).

I have been following the “B” Tele discussion on 2 forums. For my kind of skiing which preferably is in soft snow, I look at all the rotation of the lead ski, and [...] I can’t see how it is a benefit it 3-D snow. I don’t think I could ever do it in manky 3-D snow.
[...]
I defy most anyone to rotate and drive the lead ski, on a XC optimally sized Gamme, on anything other than a perfectly groomed surface.

When fisheater writes "b-tele", does the idea actually apply to all kinds of "angulation weighted" tele turns? By angulation weighted, I mean weighting without going up down. Maybe the lead ski rotation is actually not an issue here because the lead ski is unweighted in b-tele.

On the above video, the 3:00 skier skis deep snow, and uses up-down unweighting. By contrast, the 4:48 skiers race on a groomed piste, and weight mostly without going up and down. That has been a norm in old school tele I guess.



Like @CIMA replied to fish already, telehiro skis all kinds of gear and all kinds of snow. For example, on the video above, he is skiing 205cm 62-53-59 non-rockered skis. Snow is not deep, but looks actually quite crappy. I feel powder is easier to ski with XC gear than such re-frozen on top of groomed would be. Yet here th weights also up and down.

[CIMA]

@CIMA Do you mean width of feet? I was thinking of that today, when practicing for two hours at a resort. I thought that a narrow stance might be easier than a wide stance for b-tele, or generally for weighting your rear ski.

It seems mechanically difficult to weight your rear ski in a wide stance. Don't you need to have a lot of inclination in a wide stance to find your mountain side ski outer edge? Well, maybe I just have not got my angulation right yet. I guess you could incline more, if you would compensate the leaning with your upper body.

You can control the angle at which the lead ski tips by adjusting the width of your feet. The wider your feet are, the more the ski will tip. You can test this on a flat surface. As the slope angle increases, your feet tend to widen, causing the sweeping motion of the lead ski to become larger. You can see examples of this in Telehiro's videos, where he tackles steep slopes with large motions using normal telemark gear.

Most of the time I had to initiate a turn by carving with my valley side ski. At that stage, if I tried to weight my rear ski, it would cut into snow, and then I would get into real trouble with crossed skis soon. I even fell once on my butt there. So to get across fall line, I just first carved my valley side ski, and intentionally took weight off my rear ski. Then the mountain side ski rotated freely, followed the direction of the valley side ski, and I avoided the "ski cross issue".

Don't worry, experiencing confusion is normal when starting to learn b-tele.

I'm wondering if you're practicing b-tele turns by making large turns at a slow speed, as is often observed in alpine ski schools for beginners. If you're making large turns slowly, weighing the rear ski and leaning backward like the easy riders on a chopper, that would be incorrect. If I were in your shoes, I would start by practicing skiing straight downhill on a very mild slope by tapping your feet and sliding your lead skis a little bit alternatively at a tempo of jogging. Next, I would start making very shallow S-turns while facing the fall line on a mild slope. Actually, making large turns is one of the advanced techniques of b-tele. You'll need to learn short turns first.