Telehiro and B-Tele Discussion

[tkarhu]

"I'm just going straight downhill, spinning and braking repeatedly."

As mentioned several times, the B-tele's method is built around brake operation. What exactly is the brake operation? It means "skidding” for hard slopes and "burying” for thick snow. And for the part that you see as a turn, and even the lead change part, in my opinion, the appropriate word is "spin." Quick change of direction. Both feet at the same time. It's in the air.

https://www.otr.pxc.jp/~mahoroba/english.htm

[fisheater]

Thank you Cima, I understand more where you are coming from. I am not skiing above tree line. In bad visibility I instinctively ski in trees where visibility is typically much better. I also tend to point the skis straighter down the hill in powder, and in foot or so of snow I may ski in leather, beyond that it’s T-4’s and mid 80 cm underfoot.
I guess I’m coming from a very different perspective. I do salute your athleticism and prowess. I gave my perspective, so I will sit back and enjoy reading the thread.

[Capercaillie]

Techniques have pros and cons. Here is a video from last week showing where b-tele does not work (deeper snow on narrow skis). There are older (some people here have called them "outdated") techniques such as those described in Steve Barnett's Cross-Country Downhill to deal with this situation.

Also, if you were wondering where the snow is, it's in Japan right now.

[Stephen]

I’ve seen several ski videos lately where I really get the picture of the skier “walking downhill.”
I’m wondering if “walking downhill” and “braking” have any correlation, and if “running downhill” and “A-Tele” have a similar correlation?
@riel made a comment a while ago about never having considered the option to separate speed control (braking) from the actual turn, which is what is happening in B-Tele.
Running downhill suggests less or no need for speed control, hence turns with a bigger radius.

In the video just posted by @Capercaillie, no need for speed control in the powder and no obvious B-Tele.
Also, his weight distribution looks to remain quite even.
.

[Montana St Alum]

I’ve seen several ski videos lately where I really get the picture of the skier “walking downhill.”
I’m wondering if “walking downhill” and “braking” have any correlation, and if “running downhill” and “A-Tele” have a similar correlation?
@riel made a comment a while ago about never having considered the option to separate speed control (braking) from the actual turn, which is what is happening in B-Tele.
Running downhill suggests less or no need for speed control, hence turns with a bigger radius.

In the video just posted by @Capercaillie, no need for speed control in the powder and no obvious B-Tele.
Also, his weight distribution looks to remain quite even.
.
IMG_3569.jpeg

Other than being on low angle, or deep draggy snow, everyone uses turns (in addition to changing direction) for speed control. Anytime you make a turn that is tighter than the turn radius of the ski, you're skidding, and that will scrub speed.

In powder, you can generate turns technically tighter than the turn radius of the ski. That's the beauty of tip and tail rocker. But in that case, you're still compressing snow to the outside of the turn and dissipating energy (speed) in the process. You don't feel like you're skidding, but you are, just "inside" the medium (snow) not "on" it.

I have about 1500 hours flying the F-14 (part of my past Navy life). The turn radius is well defined, but you could "squat" it and generate a hell of a "bat-turn", but you'd also bleed off about 100 knots in less than 2 seconds! It's interesting, how some of the physical feedback - feel - similarity between surfing, sailing, skiing, kayaking, flying and such.

When I'm carving, the speed control comes from continuing the turn such that the downhill vector becomes smaller, i.e. across the hill because without skidding, I'll accelerate to the point at least where drag = the acceleration from slope angle. That's generally too fast for my comfort level. I don't see much value in sideslipping down the mountain. Are these just "skills exercises" for learning?

I admit I'm not following this super closely, but I'm just not seeing the value in defining or differentiating between "A" Vs. "B" - tely.

[tkarhu]

I don't see much value in sideslipping down the mountain. Are these just "skills exercises" for learning?

I see them as drills, too. On the video below, his skis are not for my liking, but still more like my skis than my wool socks.

"I'm just going straight downhill, spinning and braking repeatedly."
https://www.otr.pxc.jp/~mahoroba/english.htm

Stopping between turn gives you time to digest the new sensory input that you have just got, when trying out b-tele turns. That is useful for learning. When moving on from indoors drills, side slipping gives you that time on skis.

[Stephen]

Other than being on low angle, or deep draggy snow, everyone uses turns (in addition to changing direction) for speed control. Anytime you make a turn that is tighter than the turn radius of the ski, you're skidding, and that will scrub speed.

Right, but there is a difference between loosing speed purely as a result of turning, and wanting to loose speed.
Serious question: How often do ski racers want to loose speed? I’m thinking, not very often.
I think what might be different about B-Tele is that he is not using the turn to control speed, he is checking his speed right before turn initiation (if I understand correctly).

When I'm carving, the speed control comes from continuing the turn such that the downhill vector becomes smaller, i.e. across the hill because without skidding, I'll accelerate to the point at least where drag = the acceleration from slope angle. That's generally too fast for my comfort level. I don't see much value in sideslipping down the mountain. Are these just "skills exercises" for learning?

The way I understand it, his technique is particularly applicable with lighter gear (whereas, you are skiing heavy gear, where his technique is not as relevent).
And, the technique he uses doesn’t require him to get “speed control [by] continuing the turn.”
He’s doing quick turns down the fall line with a back foot “check” just before each turn.
I *think* this back foot check creates energy that he uses to up Down-unweight, which keeps his upper body very quiet.
If I’m understanding his style, I think my last statement is a key part of his technique.

I admit I'm not following this super closely, but I'm just not seeing the value in defining or differentiating between "A" Vs. "B" - tely.

Isn’t that a little like saying “Why differentiate between ANY of the different telemark techniques?”
I mean, there are differences in style and technique, and different techniques work better or worse with different: equipment, snow conditions, abilities, etc.
Also, people have different style preferences.

[Montana St Alum]

Yeah, maybe it's a lighter gear sort of thing. There are really only two ways that a skier can scrub speed. Turn till you're across or up the hill or just turn. You can maintain speed or scrub it, by virtue of the degree to which you skid. Everyone does that. If I want to stay fast, I would just skid less or not turn as tight.

It seems like this technique suffers a double whammy. First, defining it seems challenging, so it's a bit of a Rorschach Test rather than a technique. And second, it replaces easily executed distributions of effort, balance, etc. and replaces those with something that just doesn't make much sense. If it made sense, whammy number one wouldn't be a factor.

But, it has been so long since I was on light gear that there may be a lot to this I don't see. I'm just saying the emperor's close are missing. I'm not saying he's ugly.

[Sidney Dunkin]

I would say it's a low angle thing, rather than a light gear thing. As things get steeper you will have to resort to more conventional A turns at some point.

[Montana St Alum]

I should go back to lurking (not that kind!). I've still only watched bits and pieces of the videos.