Front skins with kicker skins instead of full length... anyone tried this?

[Crayefish]

Had a good tip recently from a Norwegian and I wondered whether anyone has tried this and what your experiences were.

I was asking about skins for climbing the Hardangerjøkulen ice cap in Norway and the local guide suggested that instead of taking off my X-skins from my Gammes and fitting full length skins, that I instead leave the X-skins on and fit (pre-trimmed) 1/3 skins to the front of my skis so they meet the X-skin attachment, effectively making a 2/3 skin system.

I love the idea, as when it's mega cold, I hate to have to take off/reapply skins, so could just leave the X-skins on and peel off the front skins when at the top. If anyone has tried this before, how effective is it compared to full length skins?

I'm asking because I'd have to cut up my full length skins for this and wondering whether I'll need to buy another set to take with me (I.e. having X-skins, front skins AND full length), or I can just consider my front skins as my full length "get me out of shit" system.

Would be with 30-40kg pulk in mostly flat terrain, but the odd low gradient climb (such as up the ice cap) that warrants more than a kicker skin.

[Jurassien]

Would be with 30-40kg pulk in mostly flat terrain, but the odd low gradient climb (such as up the ice cap) that warrants more than a kicker skin.

It very definitely “warrants more than a kicker skin”. I don’t know where you got the “mostly flat terrain” or the “odd low gradient climb” from. Have you looked at the map/contours? Here is a screenshot from Statens Kartverket (The Norwegian Mapping Authority) for your entertainment and enlightenment. The route is marked by the thin blue dotted line and you can see where it gets interesting west and south-west of Appelsinhytta and then again on the last sweep up to Jøkulhytta. The emergency hut (no planned overnight stays!) is open and has a table and benches, making it a good place to rest and eat your lunch. The traverse over the glacier itself is flat and uneventful, but then it gets interesting again on the descent to the north-west/north and then eastwards over even steeper slopes till you reach the 3.5km flat stretch of Finsevatnet. The entire loop, Finse back to Finse, is longer than it looks (ca.23km) and is a full and fairly strenuous touring day. The length and difficulty of the tour (especially if dragging a 40kg pulk) should not be underestimated and note that the glacier itself is often shrouded in fog.

I have attempted this round tour twice. First attempt was in 2012 using Fischer E99 waxless with 38mm mohair skins. Due to deteriorating weather and fog, I turned back just short of Jøkulhytta. The next attempt in 2017 was successful and for that I used E109 waxable with 50mm mohair skins (and wax after Jøkulhytta). On both occasions I carried a somewhat lightened rucksack, as the overnight stuff was left in Finsehytta.

…..and to answer your specific question: forget about chopping up skins – at least for that particular tour. You’ll want maximum traction on the way up, so full-length mohair, or even full-length nylon if you insist on dragging a pulk up there. You could possibly use the short skins or wax to cross the glacier, but you might want the full skins again to keep your speed in check for the descent.

EDIT: Map screenshot removed due to copyright considerations.

[Crayefish]

Would be with 30-40kg pulk in mostly flat terrain, but the odd low gradient climb (such as up the ice cap) that warrants more than a kicker skin.

It very definitely “warrants more than a kicker skin”. I don’t know where you got the “mostly flat terrain” or the “odd low gradient climb” from.

I didn't mean the glacier! Obviously that's much steeper. I was referring to the rest of my 3 week tour around the Hardangervidda. Mix kickers will be fine for that. Obviously for the glacier I'd need more Hence the question.

I'll do the ice cap at the start or end of my trip, depending on the weather at the time. As I'll be pulk hauling, I'd not do it in one day (especially at the start when I always limit my kms to break in my feet). I'd camp on the top so would be split over 2 days. For simplicity's sake, I'd probably just stick with what I used to ascent for the whole time up/on/down the ice cap so I don't have to keep removing and reapplying.

My full length are nylon as I never haul with full skins (too draggy) but if I need them for an emergency, I'd rather have maximum traction. But this is exactly where I was leading to; how much traction difference would I have bet 2/3 skins and full and do I need to bring two sets (one trimmed) if I decide to go with the recommendation of the local guide. He seemed to think it would be fine up the glacier with the 2/3rds with my given pulk weight. Did you have any slippage with full length mohairs?

I'll carry 2x mix X-skins (unused) and one set of used nylon X-skins as spare, just because I have them. I've given up on mohair as I seem to trash them in just a few days when the crust is abrasive or covered with detritus. With my mix X-skin I've been just ok to climb maybe 7%, at a guess, with 30+ kgs behind.

[bbense]

You used to be able to buy kicker skins with a buckle/plate attachment in narrower widths.

https://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/e ... cker-50mm/

My experience is that moving them backward helps more with climb than moving them forward. I have used kicker skin extensions to scaled waxless skis with very good results. I suspect they'd work just as well with skin-based waxless skis.

[Jurassien]

In your opening post you did state quite clearly:

......but the odd low gradient climb (such as up the ice cap) that warrants more than a kicker skin.

………which was what raised my eyebrows. The ascent of the glacier is certainly not “low gradient”. It’s ca.650 meters of altitude gain, all of which must be negotiated again in descent.

If you’ll forgive the observation, I think it’s a bit of a daft idea dragging a pulk up there. What are you going to do when you get up on the glacier……go off-track and wander around to find a place to pitch your tent?.....on a glacier……on your own? Leave the pulk at Finse, take a rucksack with the essentials, including emergency equipment (bivouac!) and make the round-tour as a day-tour. Bear in mind that on the glacier you should stick very closely to the marked route – no zig-zagging, neither on the ascent nor (especially) on the descent. You have to be confident in your ability to hold a straight line, tight in to the marker sticks, on descent. If you attempt wide, descending traverses with kick turns on a glacier you could get yourself in a lot of trouble. You have no way of knowing where the crevasses are (they’re covered by snow-bridges).

To your specific question on whether my skins slipped – I can’t remember having any problems with them, neither on the E99 nor on the broader E109. When the terrain gets steeper you can get some slippage if you neglect to “set” the skins (i.e. consciously weight the forward ski). In extreme cases, if that doesn’t help, you can lift the ski slightly off the surface and stomp it down. However, as I stated, I can’t remember struggling with slippage on either occasion.

Hardangervidda is a vast plateau (ca. 6,500 km2) with steep sides almost all the way around, but once you’re up on the plateau (as at Finse) the gradients are quite modest, especially in the eastern part. It’s ideal terrain for “pulking” and I have encountered many tourists doing that on my several tours in the area. From your own experience with your pulk you will have a good idea of how much traction you need, but I can state that (with a rucksack) I have never needed full-length skins on the plateau – fishscales, wax or short skins have been adequate.

Keep a sharp eye on the weather forecast. Things can change very quickly on the plateau, which is often subject to strong winds and poor visibility. When they forecast decent weather they don’t always get it right, but when they say it’s going to be bad they’re usually spot-on. Also note that if you intend to go north/south to Haukeliseter there is a ca.160 meter steep drop at the very end – when you’re actually standing at the top of the slope looking down at the road with the cabin on the other side of it. For that reason many pulk-tourists descend to Midtlæger, where there is a small car-park where they can be picked up. I would strongly advise NOT to attempt to go through the Haukeli Tunnel (Haukelitunnelen) on foot, even if you have wheels or a caddy-system for your pulk, as the E 134 road can be rather busy at times.

To return to the central theme regarding hybrid “chopped-off” skins, my own view is that you would be better off taking full-length mohair skins with a traditional metal loop fastening at the tip, cutting them at the heel, and using just that, leaving the short skins in the pulk. The main wear-point at the front of the skins is the forward leading edge, i.e. where the shovel starts to curve upwards and on the inside (big toe) side of the ski. I have a photo somewhere which illustrates this very clearly, but I can’t find it at the moment. When those skins wear out you can open the stitching of the attachment, insert the remnant cut-off skins and stitch the attachment closed again. They would not, of course, reach to the heel, but you would probably now have the chopped-off 1/3 front-skins which you described in the first place – so you could “have your cake and eat it” (which is an absurd expression that the English like to use).

Having said all that, I’ll still stick to my advice of maximum traction to ascend to Hardangerjøkulen.

[randoskier]

Hello My Friend!

If you are pulling a pulk on a good grade don't dick around with fiddly half skin + half skin tricks. Weight is not so important anyway (you have a pulk!). Get a pair of Black Diamond Ascension skins off of Ebay.com for 25 EUR, brand new! They have loads of them. You won't regret it! (many people on TT have 'em) It is also a good VERY good idea for the ascent to fashion a simple piano-hinge/plate-brake on the back of your pulk so when you pause on the slope your pulk pauses too, instead of you having to hold its weight in the fall line while you are stationary.

[Crayefish]

Hello My Friend!

If you are pulling a pulk on a good grade don't dick around with fiddly half skin + half skin tricks. Weight is not so important anyway (you have a pulk!). Get a pair of Black Diamond Ascension skins off of Ebay.com for 25 EUR, brand new! They have loads of them. You won't regret it! (many people on TT have 'em) It is also a good VERY good idea for the ascent to fashion a simple piano-hinge/plate-brake on the back of your pulk so when you pause on the slope your pulk pauses too, instead of you having to hold its weight in the fall line while you are stationary.

It's not the weight I'm worried about that's for sure. More that when it's super cold, I'd rather not remove and reapply skins unless I need to. This advice from the Norwegian guide seemed like a good way of getting around it (i.e. never removing the kickers). I already have some 45mm full length nylons so I actually cut them down to try this... if they don't provide sufficient grip for the climb I'd just abandon as was a side objective anyway. Will report back.

Funnily enough, I actually just made such a brake plate for my pulk. Will see how well it works. I also have deployable side fins that I made for side slopes. Never needed them in Sarek as didn't do much side slope climbing (only one ascent out of the valley but was icy anyway).

[randoskier]

Hello My Friend!

Funnily enough, I actually just made such a brake plate for my pulk. Will see how well it works. I also have deployable side fins that I made for side slopes. Never needed them in Sarek as didn't do much side slope climbing (only one ascent out of the valley but was icy anyway).

Hi, The flap-brake on the back of the pulk is indispensable. Pretty much fool-proof if the flap extends 10 cm below the lowest point of the pulk when the flap is flat against the back of the pulk. What kind of pulk are you using? I put runners (also called wear bars) on the bottom of my Jet Sled pulk and on my Paris pulk. I used to use an aluminum skeg, but the runners hold well enough by themselves on side-hills and track in descent so I ditched them. Are you skiing up north this year too?

[Crayefish]

Hello My Friend!

Funnily enough, I actually just made such a brake plate for my pulk. Will see how well it works. I also have deployable side fins that I made for side slopes. Never needed them in Sarek as didn't do much side slope climbing (only one ascent out of the valley but was icy anyway).

Hi, The flap-brake on the back of the pulk is indispensable. Pretty much fool-proof if the flap extends 10 cm below the lowest point of the pulk when the flap is flat against the back of the pulk. What kind of pulk are you using? I put runners (also called wear bars) on the bottom of my Jet Sled pulk and on my Paris pulk. I used to use an aluminum skeg, but the runners hold well enough by themselves on side-hills and track in descent so I ditched them. Are you skiing up north this year too?

I use an Aiguille Alpine expedition pulk (originally Snowsled) and exclusively use the bars, but keep the rope as backup. The bars handy for the terrain I ski on, but can also use a pulk bar bag for my daily supplies (e.g. food, drink, map, gloves, etc)... see below photos. The pulk is HDPE so very tough, but not expensive. Currently no dedicated runners on there, but once the molded runners get a little more chewed up and draggy, I'll probably fit some UHMWPE runners.

In just over 1 week I'll be heading to Hardangervidda for 3 weeks solo around the plateau. Weather looking a tad warm at the moment though! Barely -10, which is a bit warm for my liking.

[randoskier]

The weather looks pretty good except for the wind, over the next three days the wind will be between 18 m/s is 22 m/s (40-50 mph) with heavy snow, the drifts should be quite interesting, easy to make snow-caves anyway. Then it gets colder and clearer. The avalanche risks will be quite high in the steeper sections.

I know your pulk model from the English blokes I run into- a good design.

God tur!