Terminology: The "Lambda" Tele' Turn

[Stephen]

Hello TallGrass,
I have no more interest in debating what I know as fact, than I did debating activity of bindings and pressuring the front of the ski with the Canadian guy whom ticked people off.
In a right parallel turn the inside edge of the outside ski has the most pressure on it.
In the Stem Christie we teach the skier to angulate the body over that outside ski (the left ski in a right turn). However, the skier skier is still wedging the right ski, as they have not yet learned any parallel turning technique. The exercise teaches how to get the weight over the outside ski. In doing so, it becomes easy for the inside ski to slide in parallel to the outside ski.
We also teach to bend the knees more through the turn as they progress across the fall line. As they come across the fall line, we teach them to rise up, and allow the edges to release. They naturally get right back into the wedge. Then they repeat the process.
I taught well over a thousand of those lessons. Back when I taught the peculiarities of the terrain at that resort required kids on a discounted school group ticket to pass the Stem Christie test on right and left sides to be allowed to ride the lifts. If a kid didn’t pass, I would have them jump in my next class. If I didn’t have another class, I would work with them a little more to get them through. I’m sure there were a couple that I couldn’t teach, or they decided they would practice more on the bunny hill, but I was able to pass easily 99 % of them. That was without lowering standards, as to be able to ride the lifts back then had terrain that required a solid Stem Christie to safely negotiate.
Bottom line, Stem Christie starts with engagement of inside edges on both inside and outside ski. However the objective is for the inside edge of the inside ski to release and slide parallel to the outside ski.

Also the process is called a turn. The elements of the turn are edging, rotation, weighting, and unweighting. I don’t say this to be snarky, it’s just not proper terminology and downright confusing when you discuss turning, but include turning as an element of turning. Also you rotate the ski in many turning techniques.
I’m out of this discussion. I’m on a solid basis with PSIA technique, I’ve shared what I know to be factual, people can accept it as fact or not. I have no appetite for any more discussion.
Peace, I’m out!

I clearly have too much time on my hands, but @fisheater, that is sure a long post for someone who has no interest in debate!
Said with amusement.

[Stephen]

It’s not jabbing. Tall is making a connection based on a vehicle that bears little resemblance to a skier. Didn’t challenge him on this initially… let it slide. Then he used it to justify things again… so this is what appears to be taking him in a weird direction.

Maybe I should have posted a reply… like, there there you’re right. The equivalent of patting a child on the head when they say something stupid. That’s not kindness, or even good manners in adult discussion.

@Manney, Duh, “News flash” is inflammatory.

See what I did there?
“Duh” is inflammatory.
I could have left the “Duh” out and the statement would have been more neutral (more content, less spin).

“There there you’re right” and “News flash” are pretty much in the same league (inflammatory).

[Stephen]

But see, here we are again.
Original post about Telemark turn technique.
Then a bunch of blah, blah, blah about something else.

I think the whole stemmed telemark thing is probably mostly more simple than @TallGrass is making it, but his post also makes me think about it, and the links are interesting.

My choice whether I want to read all of it or not…

[Manney]

I’ve been reasonable with you, Stephen. Suggest you reciprocate… easier that way.

Pandering is not politeness… just as being direct is not impolite. Critiqued his point, not his person. Tallgrass has a voice… he can defend himself if he feels slighted.

Now I could have felt slighted by somebody expecting me to be silly enough to believe a motorcycle moves like a skier. But I didn’t take it as an insult. See how this works? You have to be looking, hoping for an insult to be insulted sometimes.

My choice whether I want to read all of it or not…

That could also be interpret as an insult… the word “all” implies a certain long windedness on Tallgrass’s part. Am I calling you on it? Nope. Giving you the benefit of the doubt. Between you and Tallgrass.

We can either all be adults or all be childish.

[TallGrass]

Hello TallGrass,
I have no more interest in debating what I know as fact, than I did debating activity of bindings and pressuring the front of the ski with the Canadian guy whom ticked people off.
In a right parallel turn the inside edge of the outside ski has the most pressure on it.
In the Stem Christie we teach the skier to angulate the body over that outside ski (the left ski in a right turn). However, the skier skier is still wedging the right ski, as they have not yet learned any parallel turning technique. The exercise teaches how to get the weight over the outside ski. In doing so, it becomes easy for the inside ski to slide in parallel to the outside ski.
We also teach to bend the knees more through the turn as they progress across the fall line. As they come across the fall line, we teach them to rise up, and allow the edges to release. They naturally get right back into the wedge. Then they repeat the process.
I taught well over a thousand of those lessons. Back when I taught the peculiarities of the terrain at that resort required kids on a discounted school group ticket to pass the Stem Christie test on right and left sides to be allowed to ride the lifts. If a kid didn’t pass, I would have them jump in my next class. If I didn’t have another class, I would work with them a little more to get them through. I’m sure there were a couple that I couldn’t teach, or they decided they would practice more on the bunny hill, but I was able to pass easily 99 % of them. That was without lowering standards, as to be able to ride the lifts back then had terrain that required a solid Stem Christie to safely negotiate.
Bottom line, Stem Christie starts with engagement of inside edges on both inside and outside ski. However the objective is for the inside edge of the inside ski to release and slide parallel to the outside ski.

Also the process is called a turn. The elements of the turn are edging, rotation, weighting, and unweighting. I don’t say this to be snarky, it’s just not proper terminology and downright confusing when you discuss turning, but include turning as an element of turning. Also you rotate the ski in many turning techniques.
I’m out of this discussion. I’m on a solid basis with PSIA technique, I’ve shared what I know to be factual, people can accept it as fact or not. I have no appetite for any more discussion.
Peace, I’m out!

I clearly have too much time on my hands, but @fisheater, that is sure a long post for someone who has no interest in debate!
Said with amusement.

Yeah, agreed.

In a right parallel turn the inside edge of the EITHER ski can have the most pressure on it as evidenced by Royal Christie and White Pass turns, or given that, it can also be SPLIT.

I don't know why the long story as there's agreement on what a Stem Christie is.

Rotation can happen in 3 axes (yaw, pitch, roll), so I'm not sure what is to be gotten at mentioning that.

I don't know what "PSIA" has to do with any of this any more than snowboarding does as this thread is about telemark (free heel) and staggered skis not alpine and 'getting from snowplow to parallel' via stem christie (a non-sequitor AFAIC) and an Appeal to Authority fallacy as it's outside it's scope (like Michael Jordan giving ski tips).

[Stephen]

My choice whether I want to read all of it or not…

That could also be interpret as an insult… the word “all” implies a certain long windedness on Tallgrass’s part.

You made a statement that my use of the word “all” implies something.
To be accurate, “all” doesn’t “imply” anything.
You interpreted “all” that way.

Does it seem fair to say that my actual intent is unknown without further conversation between you and me to determine what I actually meant?

[Manney]

Everything fisheater said is 100% correct, both technically and practically… also codified by the national ski instructional authority. Think of PSIA as what it is… a professional body for ski instructors. Like the AMA is for doctors.

Dismissing valid references to PSIA is like questioning the medical opinion of a licensed doctor on a medical issue. There is a chance you might be right… but that chance is vanishingly small because it would require you to be a savant… an untrained person with limited experience who is able to see that which vastly qualified people cannot.

[Manney]

My choice whether I want to read all of it or not…

That could also be interpret as an insult… the word “all” implies a certain long windedness on Tallgrass’s part.

You made a statement that my use of the word “all” implies something.
To be accurate, “all” doesn’t “imply” anything.
You interpreted “all” that way.

Does it seem fair to say that my actual intent is unknown without further conversation between you and me to determine what I actually meant?

You think that the “duh” was externally directed… not said in a self deprecating way.

So you see… it’s all in the interpretation… which is why people can feel insulted even when an insult is not directed… or even self directed. Sheesh… I can’t even make fun of myself without triggering someone these days.

This is why America is so messed up atm.

[Stephen]

That could also be interpret as an insult… the word “all” implies a certain long windedness on Tallgrass’s part.

You made a statement that my use of the word “all” implies something.
To be accurate, “all” doesn’t “imply” anything.
You interpreted “all” that way.

Does it seem fair to say that my actual intent is unknown without further conversation between you and me to determine what I actually meant?

You think that the “duh” was externally directed… not said in a self deprecating way.

So you see… it’s all in the interpretation… which is why people can feel insulted even when an insult is not directed… or self directed.

Anyone can be insulted at any time if they choose to be. This is why America is so messed up atm.

I don’t see the word “Duh” in my post you quoted, above.
I have the impression that you didn’t answer my question:
“Does it seem fair to say that my actual intent is unknown without further conversation between you and me to determine what I actually meant?”

In other words, you said I meant something that is open to interpretation, without checking with me to see what I ACTUALLY meant.

I would rather speak in my own voice rather than have you suggest what I MIGHT have meant.

[TallGrass]

My choice whether I want to read all of it or not...

Some people like to read a lot, some as little as possible; some like to go into depth on a topic, others do not. Can't please everyone, and while some find thinking a chore, others enjoy it, thus why some detest word or number puzzles while others enjoy them.

For those interested, this Rembrandt-quality artwork I made may help to convey what I'm getting at. No doubt humans make all sorts of subtle adjustments and changes with their skis to adjust speed, direction and orientation without consciously thinking about same as they don't think about lateral or fore/aft balance and all the muscle activations that go into walking down a path, but out-of-mind is not does-not-exist, something readily apparent to anyone learning a new skill (Unconscious Incompetent --> Conscious Incompetent --> Conscious Competent --> Unconscious Competent). However, just because a person can walk doesn't mean they understand the mechanics/physics involved to be able program a robot to.

Note whether a ski is flat or edging, and which edge if so. I play around with this on Nordic skis and leather 3pin boots too. Haven't gotten a chance to try out the Scarpa boots and K2 Workstinx yet.

Newsflash… a skier is not a motorcycle.

No one said it was, thus that quip is a Strawman (Fallacy).

Tall is making a connection based on a vehicle that bears little resemblance to a skier.

Strawman #2.

Everything fisheater said is 100% correct, both technically and practically… also codified by the national ski instructional authority. Think of PSIA as what it is… a professional body for ski instructors. Like the AMA is for doctors.

Dismissing valid references to PSIA is like questioning the medical opinion of a licensed doctor on a medical issue.

Doctors question other doctors all the time -- let that sink in. You make an analogy between PSIA and AMA, but instead of saying "Newsflash: a skier is not a doctor" as you did, I'll point out it is likewise an analogy, not an equivalence. There was no "reference" to the PSIA, only 'name dropping.' Academititis is the disease trying to substitute credentials for rational argument. Lastly, I don't think you understand why such bodies exist, how they operate, and why beyond in the nominal sense -- they are human creations and subject to all the attributes (good and or bad) of their creators and can even compound them.

@Manney Please cite what you have constructively contributed to this thread.