lead change.. getting to the in fall line?

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mca80
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Re: lead change.. getting to the in fall line?

Post by mca80 » Thu Apr 27, 2023 4:56 pm

connyro wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2023 3:36 pm
mca80 wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2023 3:19 pm

No really. There are conditions that aren't ideal for any type of downhill which are ok for straight up xc or touring. Ergo my question. And "reasonable snow" is vague. You're proving yourself an ignorant, arrogant ass though.
Sigh. The discussion in this thread is about telemark turns, not xc skiing. If you'd like to discuss that topic, maybe start a thread about xc skiing and conditions.
Sigh. My initial question applied to telemark turns. Simple logic even you can follow.

Turns are possible in reasonable snow.
You don't check snow conditions but grab gear and go.
My question: do you ski unreasonable snow? If not, how do you know it is unreasonable without checking its conditon?

mca80
Posts: 1090
Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2022 5:24 pm
Location: Da UP eh
Ski style: Over the river and through the woods
Favorite Skis: Nansen, Finnmark, Kongsvold, Combat NATO, Fischer Superlite, RCS
Favorite boots: Crispi Bre, Hook, Alpina 1600, Alico Ski March, Crispi Mountain

Re: lead change.. getting to the in fall line?

Post by mca80 » Thu Apr 27, 2023 4:56 pm

connyro wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2023 10:35 am
Manney wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2023 10:26 am
Distort? Just posted what you wrote… lol
You conveniently omitted the sentence right before your quote which qualifies the statement. That qualifies as distorting.
It didn't qualify it, it contradicted it.



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connyro
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Re: lead change.. getting to the in fall line?

Post by connyro » Thu Apr 27, 2023 5:06 pm

mca80 wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2023 4:56 pm
connyro wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2023 10:35 am
Manney wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2023 10:26 am
Distort? Just posted what you wrote… lol
You conveniently omitted the sentence right before your quote which qualifies the statement. That qualifies as distorting.
It didn't qualify it, it contradicted it.
Do you have anything constructive to add to this thread? Any experience to contribute? Niggling with me over my exact verbiage doesn't qualify. It seems like you're sore with me so you decided to try and pick a fight. If you have a personal score to settle with me, take it to PM. Otherwise I won't be addressing you.



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Lo-Fi
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Re: lead change.. getting to the in fall line?

Post by Lo-Fi » Fri Apr 28, 2023 10:24 pm

blue_footed_boobie wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2023 11:31 pm
…I'm confused about when the lead change happens...
In the diagram I screen shotted from the ^ resource, I drew an arrow where you've finished the turn, are traversing a bit to the right, and then MAGICALLY have turned to the left to be in the fall line.
HOW DO YOU GET THAT WAY IF YOU'VE BEEN TURNING RIGHT?
I drew my own diagram showing where I'm confused.
Is there some kind of other, non-snow plow, non-parallel, non-telemark kind of turn that gets you there?

Thank you!!!!!

Imagehuh.jpg

I don’t know if these might help illustrate the lead change that is closest to reflecting the diagram you shared, that came to my mind. These are shallow quick turns where the skis may be even and parallel closer to the fall line during the transition.
9C80C7A8-0763-4AC4-96C1-66A3D8831E01.gif
GIG gif telemark mogul skiing
(Above gif’d from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCphRGnNAUc. Good vid on skiing moguls)


96255242-C554-4548-AE15-506A944B5887.gif
GIF gif telemark skiing fall line lead change
Last edited by Lo-Fi on Tue May 02, 2023 7:13 am, edited 3 times in total.



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Re: lead change.. getting to the in fall line?

Post by Montana St Alum » Sat Apr 29, 2023 2:04 am

Lo-Fi wrote:
Fri Apr 28, 2023 10:24 pm
blue_footed_boobie wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2023 11:31 pm
…I'm confused about when the lead change happens...
In the diagram I screen shotted from the ^ resource, I drew an arrow where you've finished the turn, are traversing a bit to the right, and then MAGICALLY have turned to the left to be in the fall line.
HOW DO YOU GET THAT WAY IF YOU'VE BEEN TURNING RIGHT?
I drew my own diagram showing where I'm confused.
Is there some kind of other, non-snow plow, non-parallel, non-telemark kind of turn that gets you there?

Thank you!!!!!

Imagehuh.jpg

I don’t know if these might help illustrate the lead change that is closest to reflecting the diagram you shared, that came to my mind. These are shallow quick turns where the skis may be parallel closer to the fall line during the transition.

9C80C7A8-0763-4AC4-96C1-66A3D8831E01.gif
(Above gif’d from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCphRGnNAUc. Good vid on skiing moguls)



3CDC31B2-EF11-4962-8F9D-741709042BB9.gif

https://instagram.com/telemark_xcd?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=
I wonder if blue_footed_boobie has decided we're all insane. Good GIF.



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Lo-Fi
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Re: lead change.. getting to the in fall line?

Post by Lo-Fi » Sun Apr 30, 2023 3:50 pm

Montana St Alum wrote:
Sat Apr 29, 2023 2:04 am
I wonder if blue_footed_boobie has decided we're all insane...
... And they'd be right.



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Montana St Alum
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Re: lead change.. getting to the in fall line?

Post by Montana St Alum » Sun Apr 30, 2023 4:35 pm

Lo-Fi wrote:
Sun Apr 30, 2023 3:50 pm
Montana St Alum wrote:
Sat Apr 29, 2023 2:04 am
I wonder if blue_footed_boobie has decided we're all insane...
... And they'd be right.
Yep! I expect he threw out his computer and changed providers!



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TallGrass
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Re: lead change.. getting to the in fall line?

Post by TallGrass » Sun Apr 30, 2023 4:59 pm

Montana St Alum wrote:
Sun Apr 30, 2023 4:35 pm
Lo-Fi wrote:
Sun Apr 30, 2023 3:50 pm
Montana St Alum wrote:
Sat Apr 29, 2023 2:04 am
I wonder if blue_footed_boobie has decided we're all insane...
... And they'd be right.
Yep! I expect he threw out his computer and changed providers!
Known data:

blue_footed_boobie
Tue Apr 25, 2023 10:18 pm -- Joined
Tue Apr 25, 2023 10:31 pm -- Post by blue_footed_boobie
Tue Apr 25, 2023 10:31 pm -- Last active
Total posts:1

:idea: EDIT: If the OP is not willing to participate further, should we? :?:
Last edited by TallGrass on Sun Apr 30, 2023 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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TallGrass
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Re: lead change.. getting to the in fall line?

Post by TallGrass » Sun Apr 30, 2023 6:00 pm

Per my earlier post, https://telemarktalk.com/viewtopic.php? ... 928#p60554 , the "observation" is faulty and phase-shifted by 90-degrees (think sine wave).

I think where the mix up is happening is the difference between "sensing" (feel, sight) versus "indicated" (measured, etc.).

Sense -- one looks at the GIF or video and tries to "catch" when the skis are even (versus staggered).
Indicated -- as staggered is a lower stance and even is a higher, one looks for when the skier's head is highest "indicating" the skis are even.

Let's look at LoFi's first GIF...
Image
I think it's clear the skier's head is the highest (thus skis even) when crossing the fall line, not when skis are farthest from it.

Let's look at LoFi's second GIF...
Image
The pattern is narrower, tighter, and at the first "even" orange mark the skier's skis also appear to be, but not at the second -- INCONSISTENT.
Now look for skier HEAD HEIGHT, again it's highest when crossing the fall line, not at the sides.
Last let's look at the SKI TRACK, and where it is narrow (skis even) and wide (making a turn). It's narrow where the first pair of even orange lines are, and wide at the second. :?: :idea:

How do we explain the skis looking "even" mid-arc at the first instance in the second? Simple, the skier is SKIING AROUND THE CAMERA(MAN) thus the apex of the turn (as well as the transition between turns) is not the same as the following turns that are "in rhythm." The skier comes in from the far LEFT side of the frame, then proceeds down the MIDDLE of the frame -- that first turn in non-representative of the latter ones, but it's "pattern" is nonetheless (falsely) superimposed on them.

Alternative proof, and lifting from my original post on this, let's look at it not as Left and Right turns, but as ClockWise and Counter-ClockWise (Anti-CW for Brit's).

blue_footed_boobie wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2023 11:31 pm
I'm confused about when the lead change happens.
I've been looking at this awesome resource
https://www.qgdigitalpublishing.com/pub ... &ver=html5

In the diagram I screen shotted from the ^ resource, I drew an arrow where you've finished the turn, are traversing a bit to the right, and then MAGICALLY have turned to the left to be in the fall line.
HOW DO YOU GET THAT WAY IF YOU'VE BEEN TURNING RIGHT?
Image
Per the above "understanding" with the switch (from CW to CCW, or vice versa) happening at the sides yields this... one arc made with different entry- and exit- stances. (Paradox)
Blue is (turning one way), Red is the switch, Green is (turning the 'other' way).
(_____
._____)
(_____
._____)
(_____
._____)
(_____
._____)
(
.\
..)
./
(
.\
..)
./
(
.\
..)
./


By contrast (and per my OP)
Blue is (turning one way), Red is the switch, Green is (turning the 'other' way).
Stance is consistent with arc.
(_____
._____)
(_____
._____)
(_____
._____)
(_____
._____)
(
.\
..)
./
(
.\
..)
./
(
.\
..)
./



Lastly, let's revisit the OP's diagram which hides another paradox:
MS Paint _ Microsoft Paint Online.png
The "offset" goes from 0 to 1 to 2 to 3 to 0 to -3 to -2 to -1... in terms of offset.

Which of these two Versions best depicts a skier making turns.
Which of these two Versions best depicts a the orange ski-position lines drawn in by the OP and LoFi.

Version ONE
____
_____
______
_______
____
____
____
____
____
____
_____
______
_______
____
____
____
____
____


Version TWO
____
_____
______
_______
______
_____
____
____
____
____
____
____
____
_____
______
_______
______
_____
____
____
____
____
____
____



The one matching the Orange Ski-Position is NOT a smooth flowing ski path like a Sine wave akin to a ski track left, rather it forms kind of a Syncopating Step wave. NOTE the transition from blue to green, versus green to blue.

Still not convinced the OP's depiction (and LoFi's) is wrong, note how one turn comes out of the "switch" with Slight offset in one direction, but MAX offset in the other direction. The asymmetry, again, "indicates" the diagram to be wrong.
MS Paint _ Microsoft Paint Online (1).png



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Montana St Alum
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Re: lead change.. getting to the in fall line?

Post by Montana St Alum » Sun Apr 30, 2023 7:12 pm

TallGrass wrote:
Sun Apr 30, 2023 6:00 pm
Per my earlier post, https://telemarktalk.com/viewtopic.php? ... 928#p60554 , the "observation" is faulty and phase-shifted by 90-degrees (think sine wave).

I think where the mix up is happening is the difference between "sensing" (feel, sight) versus "indicated" (measured, etc.).

Sense -- one looks at the GIF or video and tries to "catch" when the skis are even (versus staggered).
Indicated -- as staggered is a lower stance and even is a higher, one looks for when the skier's head is highest "indicating" the skis are even.

Let's look at LoFi's first GIF...
Image
I think it's clear the skier's head is the highest (thus skis even) when crossing the fall line, not when skis are farthest from it.

Let's look at LoFi's second GIF...
Image
The pattern is narrower, tighter, and at the first "even" orange mark the skier's skis also appear to be, but not at the second -- INCONSISTENT.
Now look for skier HEAD HEIGHT, again it's highest when crossing the fall line, not at the sides.
Last let's look at the SKI TRACK, and where it is narrow (skis even) and wide (making a turn). It's narrow where the first pair of even orange lines are, and wide at the second. :?: :idea:

How do we explain the skis looking "even" mid-arc at the first instance in the second? Simple, the skier is SKIING AROUND THE CAMERA(MAN) thus the apex of the turn (as well as the transition between turns) is not the same as the following turns that are "in rhythm." The skier comes in from the far LEFT side of the frame, then proceeds down the MIDDLE of the frame -- that first turn in non-representative of the latter ones, but it's "pattern" is nonetheless (falsely) superimposed on them.

Alternative proof, and lifting from my original post on this, let's look at it not as Left and Right turns, but as ClockWise and Counter-ClockWise (Anti-CW for Brit's).

blue_footed_boobie wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2023 11:31 pm
I'm confused about when the lead change happens.
I've been looking at this awesome resource
https://www.qgdigitalpublishing.com/pub ... &ver=html5

In the diagram I screen shotted from the ^ resource, I drew an arrow where you've finished the turn, are traversing a bit to the right, and then MAGICALLY have turned to the left to be in the fall line.
HOW DO YOU GET THAT WAY IF YOU'VE BEEN TURNING RIGHT?
Image
Per the above "understanding" with the switch (from CW to CCW, or vice versa) happening at the sides yields this... one arc made with different entry- and exit- stances. (Paradox)
Blue is (turning one way), Red is the switch, Green is (turning the 'other' way).
(_____
._____)
(_____
._____)
(_____
._____)
(_____
._____)
(
.\
..)
./
(
.\
..)
./
(
.\
..)
./


By contrast (and per my OP)
Blue is (turning one way), Red is the switch, Green is (turning the 'other' way).
Stance is consistent with arc.
(_____
._____)
(_____
._____)
(_____
._____)
(_____
._____)
(
.\
..)
./
(
.\
..)
./
(
.\
..)
./



Lastly, let's revisit the OP's diagram which hides another paradox:
MS Paint _ Microsoft Paint Online.png
The "offset" goes from 0 to 1 to 2 to 3 to 0 to -3 to -2 to -1... in terms of offset.

Which of these two Versions best depicts a skier making turns.
Which of these two Versions best depicts a the orange ski-position lines drawn in by the OP and LoFi.

Version ONE
____
_____
______
_______
____
____
____
____
____
____
_____
______
_______
____
____
____
____
____


Version TWO
____
_____
______
_______
______
_____
____
____
____
____
____
____
____
_____
______
_______
______
_____
____
____
____
____
____
____



The one matching the Orange Ski-Position is NOT a smooth flowing ski path like a Sine wave akin to a ski track left, rather it forms kind of a Syncopating Step wave. NOTE the transition from blue to green, versus green to blue.

Still not convinced the OP's depiction (and LoFi's) is wrong, note how one turn comes out of the "switch" with Slight offset in one direction, but MAX offset in the other direction. The asymmetry, again, "indicates" the diagram to be wrong.
MS Paint _ Microsoft Paint Online (1).png
Interesting, but there's a reason human babies walk before they talk. We are imitative. See what that guy does in the GIF? Do that!



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